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I don't have a fierce loyalty to Lucky8. If you ask Eric he will tell you I don't buy a whole lot from them. Most of the equipment on my truck is NOT from them. I think Justin and Eric are good guys running a small business and huge contributors to the US Land Rover community. They are also in the forefront for product development with the new line of Rovers.
Bottom line is YOU need to get acquainted with your truck. Yes Justin and Eric and whoever Mike is should have a firm grasp on the parts they sell, but they can't be experts on each of the 1000's of parts they sell. You need to verify stuff works when you install it and know when to stop when something is wonky. As long as other people are telling you what to do and other people are doing the work and you are uneducated, you'll have problems. And you don't strike me as the kind of guy with tons if disposable income to throw at other people's mistakes. Lord knows I'm not that guy...
The small end of the cone should fit inside the stud hole on the wheel. The cone centers the stud in the hole while keeping it tight. Time to whip out the tape measure and see if the small end of the cone is bigger or smaller than the stud hole.
I don't run steel wheels and never have. To me the pros never outweighed the cons. The Rover alloy wheels are lighter and hold a better bead than steel wheels. Could never justify forking out $400 for a downgrade. I run the solid steel RRC lug nuts on my alloy wheels.
As far as your stud length, you're fine. If you were running capped nuts you wouldn't see the stud and you wouldn't even think about it.
Originally Posted by TRIARII
Your fierce loyalty to lucky 8 speaks novels about you. Fact is they messed up 2 of my orders in the past 3 weeks. I have the receipts to prove it. Yes their website listing for the steel wheels does indicate that these tf steel wheels require the ANR4851 lug nuts. Yes I asked Mike to include the correct lug nuts when I placed the order for the wheels and unfortunately he sent me the smaller TF152NUTBLACK lugs instead. I had to pay for the second correct set of lug nuts despite their mistake. Yes I purchased a $650 suspension lift kit from Mike and yes I recieved 4 coils but unfortunately only 2 of the 4 shocks were shipped. This time Mike sent the other 2 items at their expense.
Why did they send me the wrong lugs? Probably a mistake. But fact is I have a email from presumably Eric indicating that the smaller lugs are also compatible with these wheels be it a basic lug as he claimed. So I have little or no confidence in their sales team. As for the wheels I did centered the wheels as best as I could do, with the help from a friend. I cannot guarantee that they are machine precision centered but they do look centered. The vibrations are still apparent but now only at 45 mph. The lugs are larger than the lug holes on the wheels therefore they do not go in or sit inside the lug holes of the wheels. If you look closely at the pictures you will see what I mean. The studs also do not go all the way through the lugs which is concerning.
The wheels were balanced with the weights installed on the inside of the wheels rather than the outside which is more common practice. Maybe this is part or the problem? Maybe the factory wheel hub studs are too short for these lug nuts? Maybe the powder coating somehow changed the properties of the wheels? Maybe Town Fair Tire did the first installation incorrectly? Maybe the added weight of the center caps is causing the wheels to be out of balance? Maybe I did not center the wheels good enough when I switched out the smaller lugs for the ANR4851? No one can say. But the fact is, i just pulled them off again yesterday, inspected all the wheels and carefully reinstalled them and did my best to center the wheels, with the help of a friend. If these lug centric wheels require machine precision perfection then i say the hell with these wheels. Should not be this difficult to install a dam wheel and lug nuts.
Fisheh: you seem to have ALL the answers and your like a Doctor Phil. You can tell me all my problems and offer useful solutions. So my friend please advise me on how YOU install your lug centric wheels and lug nuts. Perhaps you have a handy technique that ensures perfect centering every time? Please upload some pics and instructions on how you do it. Thanks so much in advance for your positive attitude and your willingness to dedicate your time to help fellow LR owners keep their trucks running smoothly. You rock.
Not to sound biased or anything, but I’ve run several different aftermarket aluminum rims on P38/D2’s and I never needed hub centric rings (huge rip off IMHO). I just got new lug nuts that were compatible with the new rims & I never experienced any vibrations or issues. When I tried to be pro-active on my first attempt at a set of aftermarket wheels I bought 65.00 hub centric rings, installed them, and then the wheels. I heard a clicking sound at slow speeds, and upon further inspection the hub centric rings weren’t even making contact with the aftermarket wheels........ I removed the 65.00 wonders & tossed them into the toolbox. I never needed them again.
Currently 2 of my D2’s are running aftermarket aluminum wheels & zero issues. I tighten them with the 5 lug technique of skipping one as I tighten them, once all are snug I torque them down and call it a day.
I understand that you've used a variety of aftermarket aluminum wheels on your trucks however the wheels in question are heavier steel wheels. Different ballgame. Someone suggested that you should mount the wheel then one by one, slowly tighten each lug nut, and that doing so will allow the wheel to center itself. Unfortunately this is not the case with my wheels because as you begin to tighten one lug nut the wheel position changes and comes off center ever so slightly. So then you have to loosen the lug back up and try to reenter the wheel. My technique so far has been to mount the wheel roughly into place then screw on the lugs but not tight. Making sure that the wheel can still be moved around. Then center the wheel by hand and use a flathead screwdriver to measure the distance around the hub in conjunction to the wheel. When the wheel appears to be center, slowly tighten one lug maybe half a rotation. Then check the centering of the wheel again and adjust again then proceed to screw on the next lug. Tightening in a criss cross fashion. All awhile having a second person said a few feet back and have them eyeball the wheel and tell you if it looks centered.
There has got to be some special tool that be installed around the wheel hub ring, prior to fitting the wheel. Something that will ensure that the wheel is centered when mounted. Like a template. Leave it in. Mount the wheel and screw on the lugs then remove the template ring.
I am not trying to pile on but, I would like to ask a couple question
1. Why did you go with steel wheels?
2. After paying for the powder coating, how come you were not pissed to see the scratches on the wheels from the socket?[/QUOTE]
To answer your question I was do for a new set of wheels. My alloy wheels were damaged and one of them had a tiny crack running across the surface of the wheel. Bad enough that when I went to have my truck aligned and the wheels rotated they refused to touch it. My alloys were the style 2 wheels and as beautiful as they looked they were super expensive. I went with steel wheels after doing some research on steel wheels vs alloys. Trade offs to both steel and alloys but the steel wheels are affordable and supposedly easier to repair in the field and it's easier to find a spare steel wheel vs the correct alloy wheel for your truck when your in a pinch. Plus with steel wheels and lugs you dont have to worry about warped lugs anymore. On a final note I like the vintage look of white steel wheels. Makes the truck look less modern and less bling.
Actually I called around and spoke to a couple different shops regarding powder coating. In the end i went with the shop that was local. The guy quoted me $550 initially just to zinc coat and powder coat over the original black. But then they guy ended up charging me $600 after the wheels were already painted. The guy was sketchy and I did not feel like dealing with any bull**** so I paid for his service and went my way. I was more in a rush to get my old wheels swapped out for safety reasons.
When I ordered the wheels set of 5 only 4 arrived along with the incorrect lugs. FedEx decided that I only needed 4 of the wheels despite the fact that the sales team at lucky 8 clearly wrote 1/5, 2/5, 3/5, 4/5 and 5/5. I thought Lucky 8 made the mistake by not sending the 5th wheel but it was FedEx. So the 5th wheel was delivered the following day. Then I had them powder coated and the end result kinda looked like ****. But I was like "what ever". Then after the wheels were installed the tire shop guys informed me that the center caps dont fit on the lugs. And thus began the downward spiral of events surrounding thess dam wheels. Ever since I ordered them they have given me nothing but grief. But I'm not wanting to blow another $550+ on 5 more wheels. If these wheels cant be saved then I lose the $600 I paid to have them powder coated. I want this **** to be right. I want the correct lugs and I want the wheels to be perfect and safe.
I understand that you've used a variety of aftermarket aluminum wheels on your trucks however the wheels in question are heavier steel wheels. Different ballgame. Someone suggested that you should mount the wheel then one by one, slowly tighten each lug nut, and that doing so will allow the wheel to center itself. Unfortunately this is not the case with my wheels because as you begin to tighten one lug nut the wheel position changes and comes off center ever so slightly.
Steel vs Aluminum = yes there is a weight difference however, a lug centric wheel is a lug centric wheel regardless of the material it's made out of. Yes snugging up one lug at a time is the proper technique. You say your wheels don't do that and honestly I'd stop right there. If they refuse to line up by going one by one it's not a hub issue as from the pic's you have a gap between the hub & rim. They will never be balanced = vibes and possible stress on the lugs. So that leaves the rim having to wide of hole, or a combination of the wrong type of lug nut. On the steel wheels I had from AB they came with rather small lug nuts and at the time I remember AB listing the rims/lugs as incompatible with the LR steel wheel center caps.
I hate to say it, but if they're causing you vibes and you've already tried both style of lug nuts I'd immediately stop using them. OEM LR alloy wheels are not your typical alloy wheels. They have a double bead, and they're made out of a more robust combo of materials. I don't have the documentation in front of me right now, but I remember the discussion on the RRC/D1/D2 wheels being made to exceed normal alloy rim specifications.
I never ever mounted my AB 16inch P38/D2 steel wheels and I eventually sold them as I prefer the alloy wheels with solid lug nuts. My two good buddies that run the steel wheels are still using their OEM Lug nuts on them and zero vibration issues from them. (mentioned this in another thread on this in the D2 forum). Have you tried mounting one with the OEM Alloy lug nuts just to see how it lines up???
All the steel wheels I've ever messed with = always had a very visible ring around the lug hole which was for the "conical seat" type of lug nut. Like Fish said take a wheel, and sit a lug nut in it. You should be able to tell which type it takes very quickly. His attached image is a very good comparison of the 3 most common types.
I will remove the wheels tomorrow and get some pics of a lug resting on the lug hole. Please dont tell me that AB sells the smaller lugs TF152NUTBLACK with their tf steel wheels cause that would only add fuel to the fire. Honestly I get the impression that NOBODY actually knows which lug nuts are supposed to go with these wheels. I have been researching all over the web for a confirmation on the wheels and lugs. I've read through different forums. I've reached out to a few US LR parts merchants as well as UK based merchants. I've spoken to the sales team at lucky 8 and I've emailed Terrafirma in the UK. Still have not heard back from TF. Lucky 8 claims the ANR4851 are the correct lugs. Some members claim as much while others claim the TF152NUTBLACK go with the tf wheels and now your saying ab sells the same steel wheels with the smaller lugs. There is no absolute answer on the matter as of yet. Just opinion and speculation at best. Still worse half of you guys in here have no experience with these wheels and lugs. Some of you claim you use these wheels with OEM lugs but what is OEM lugs? Both sets of lugs are OEM as far as I can gather! Both are compatible with Discovery 2 steel wheels apparently. I've never had such a hard time figuring out what parts fit my truck.
Tomorrow I have to change out the coils and shocks anyways so I will snap some pics of the lugs resting on the lug holes. I dont mean to bring any drama to the round table. All I want is the truth on what lug nuts go with these dam wheels and help figuring out if my wheels are good or bad.
The lugs I got with the AB rims were small & silver. When I say OEM Lug nuts I am talking about the lug nuts used with the OEM alloy wheels. 2 very good buddies are running steel wheels (doubt they’re TF’s) either Pro Comp or AB’s with the original aluminum wheel lug nuts. I think it looks funky, and to each their own, but they travel all over TX in their D2’s with no issues.
I don’t think the question really needs to be which lug nut P/N works, but more like what lug nut seat does the TF rim use. Conical, Spherical, or Mag type (flat). Then you could easily get any brand say for example Gorilla 14x1.5 threaded lug nuts with the proper seat and be done with it.
Now getting the proper seat lug nut is one thing, but finding one with the proper seat & thickness for those $$ LR center caps is a totally different battle. Personally I’d care less about the center cap vs having the wheels held on properly!
In the close up of the rim without the lugs installed it was pretty evident the "damage" to the rim is that the lug nuts where torqued off center from the stud hole thus putting a nice off center impression in the steel. I don't know what you torqued the nuts down to but DII alloys are 103 ft/lbs and P38 alloy and steel spare are 80 ft/lbs. Now that there is an off center impression in the wheel it's gonna be tougher than a Nor'easter in 20' open wooden boat to get the nuts to line up with the studs. My son used to be a wheel jockey at a local shop so I asked him about your problem...... your hosed. Should've used a hub ring of some type to center the wheel and then tightened the nuts enough to center on all five studs then when all are centered torque in a star pattern to final spec which I would've gone with the 80 ft/lbs first since its good enough for a P38. A removable hub centering tool of any type would've done the job like a short piece of exhaust pipe that fits the unit bearing pilot and the wheel center, even a plastic hub ring on backwards to remove after the job was done would've worked. You could try a 60* taper to ream a small lip on each stud hole and use the smaller nuts (if they'll seat inside the hole). I don't know, this is a mind blowing issue for me, I've never had a problem so far in I couldn't back up. Also as far as your wheel weights being on the inside/outside of the rim it doesn't matter, the machine was programed with the tire width so it doesn't matter. He said they should've done stick on rather than clip ons because you can glue em closer to the wheel center but that's already gone by so your wheels should be good enough to not cause vibrations, bottom line.
You can see in this picture, that the larger lug nut was making its own tapper (and off center, because of poor installation...and not trying to be rude, just truthful). Look closely, and you can see the original tapper of the lug hole farther down in the rim hole. These rims are trash now.
You can clearly see that your larger nuts did not fit down into the tapper.
Question, when the tire shop originally mounted the tires on the rover, with smaller lug nuts...did you have a vibration at 45/70 mph? Or did it develop after installed larger, supposedly correct, lug nuts? I've gone back and read most of your comments, and l'm not seeing any mention of vibration...until you...changed lug nuts to larger style (so, you could use plastic covers). So, in my mind...and by looking at pictures...the smaller diameter tappered lugs were "more" correct than the larger. Granted, you didn't get them centered very well...but...being larger to begin with...it may not have been possible to do so. Have you tried using the smaller lugs again, like l suggested a dozen posts ago? If you did, and you still have a vibration...then...most cettainly...the rims are junk now.
Whenever you are making non-factory changes to any vehicle...it is paramount to ensure that things look, feel, seem to be going together correctly...and if they don't...STOP...and re-evaluate the situation.
You can see in this picture, that the larger lug nut was making its own tapper (and off center, because of poor installation...and not trying to be rude, just truthful). Look closely, and you can see the original tapper of the lug hole farther down in the rim hole. These rims are trash now.
You can clearly see that your larger nuts did not fit down into the tapper.
Question, when the tire shop originally mounted the tires on the rover, with smaller lug nuts...did you have a vibration at 45/70 mph? Or did it develop after installed larger, supposedly correct, lug nuts? I've gone back and read most of your comments, and l'm not seeing any mention of vibration...until you...changed lug nuts to larger style (so, you could use plastic covers). So, in my mind...and by looking at pictures...the smaller diameter tappered lugs were "more" correct than the larger. Granted, you didn't get them centered very well...but...being larger to begin with...it may not have been possible to do so. Have you tried using the smaller lugs again, like l suggested a dozen posts ago? If you did, and you still have a vibration...then...most cettainly...the rims are junk now.
Whenever you are making non-factory changes to any vehicle...it is paramount to ensure that things look, feel, seem to be going together correctly...and if they don't...STOP...and re-evaluate the situation.
Good luck,
Brian.
I wanted to say that the vibrations did not occur until after I got the bigger lugs installed but with all that's been going on I really cannot confidently say for sure. Part of me faintly remembers the wheels feeling rough and slit vibrations ever since the new wheels, but I cant say for sure. I had these installed by a shop so I left with full confidence in the parts I ordered as well as with the services provided at Town Fair Tire. I wish I took down notes and that I was more observant from the moment the new wheels were installed but alas I did not think that would be necessary at the time. I've never ever had any issues like this before.
I understand you keep suggesting that the smaller lugs should be put back on. But consider from my point of view. I have the merchant (lucky 8) trying to ensure me that the ANR4851 bigger lugs are the correct lugs required for Terrafirma steel wheels. I have a UK merchant who also claims that these lugs go with these wheels. But the tire shop is convinced that these bigger lugs do not go with these wheels. I have a handful folks on this forum who swear that the smaller lugs are suppose to go with these wheels. And finally there is another handful of forum members who claim that "a friend of a friend of a friend runs Terrafirma wheels with OEM lugs and have zero issues".
There does not appear to be much information at all about Terrafirma steel wheels. No mention of the proper torque required. No mention of the proper lug to use. No mention of any special tool or template that can be used to assure perfect centering everytime you mount the wheels. Rovers North, Atlantic British, Lucky 8, Rimmer Bros all sell an aftermarket black 16x8 steel wheel. All the same price and they all look the same as far as I can tell. But each merchant claims their wheels are different. There just is not enough knowledge or support for these type of wheels and most forum folks have run alloy wheels and have little or no experience with these aftermarket Terrafirma steel wheels.
The ANR4851 lugs in no way shape or form fit inside the lug holes of the wheels. Not when the wheels were brand new and not now. Yes they kinda have a cone shape on the bottom but even that part of the lug not is too wide to fit inside the lug hole. The bottom of the lug nut simply rest up against the outer perimeter of the lug hole and that's that.
PS: I shipped the smaller TF152NUTBLACK lug nuts back to lucky 8nat my expense, thinking that Eric would honor his word. So all I have are the ANR4851 lugs.
07-05-2019, 06:07 PM
