Won't Start - LR3 V8 2008
Thread Starter
|
Mudding
Joined: Feb 2014
Posts: 196
Likes: 55
From: Madison, WI
Won't Start - LR3 V8 2008
Hi,
Looking for some advice please.
Car won't start. 2008 LR3 V8 HSE USA spec.
Sorry for long post - figured more info is better than not enough. I have numbered the information below, to make it easier for people to comment.
1. Daughter was driving car. Sitting in parking lot, engine at idle speed, in Park. Engine stalled and died. Would not restart. AAA came along, put about 1/2 - 3/4 gallon of gas in (probably not Premium Grade, not sure if that matters). Would not start. AAA tech probably did some testing of Starter Motor / Alternator / Battery. Apparently said everything was ok, and apparently said I probably need a new Fuel Pump. Towed back to house. Apparently no warning lights on dash, before vehicle died.
2. It was on my list to replace the entire Fuel Tank anyway, because the gas gauge has been acting up - Starting from about 9 months ago, it has been very slow to move up to the 'full' position, after filling up with gas. Also, the 'miles until empty' digital reading has been similarly very slow to count upwards, after filling with gas. Fast forward to a couple of months ago, and the gas gauge completely failed (hence has been showing as completely empty since then). I do take the vehicle off-road, and am assuming that somehow I dislodged or broke 1 or both of the fuel tank fuel sender float units, by landing on a rock or tree stump. I have done enough research to know that I did not want to replace the 'front' sending float unit, within the fuel tank, because apparently very difficult, and also by the time I had purchased (new) both sender float units separately, (because did not know if one or both were broken) I would be getting close to the price of a used Fuel Tank with both sender float units and also Fuel Pump still installed. Found a used tank with both sending float units and fuel pump for $230, shipped, with a warranty. Hoping at this point that the root cause of non-start issue was simply a bad fuel pump.
3. Swapped out the replacement fuel tank this past weekend. Thank you to the excellent advice on this Forum, especially this one from Tom R - https://landroverforums.com/forum/lr...as-tank-74812/
4. I had been trying to figure out the best way to remove the Gas from the tank, hoping that I could snake a small diameter tube down into tank from the gas fill pipe, siphon out, I searched online, tried a few different tubes, without success. Figured I would need to just undo the rubber semi-flexible pipe that connects to the rear of the gas tank, and somehow get enough pans situated underneath to minimize getting me and the driveway drenched in gasoline. Came up with a cunning plan - Use a wide diameter flexible hose from a shop vac, so that I could quickly put over the short (2" long) rigid tube at end of fuel tank, with other end in a very large container. Well, all the thought, concern and planning that went into 'gas removal' was unnecessary - Disconnected the pipe, and the anticipated river of gas did not happen. Couple of drops. In other words, gas tank probably almost completely empty.
5. Which means the reason the vehicle sputtered and died is because it probably ran out of gas. Wife and daughter told me there was gas in it, and I knew the AAA driver put some in, therefore I had no reason to add any more, before swapping the tank. And besides, I knew I needed to swap out the tank to try to fix the gas gauge issue, so I just decided at this point to continue, hoping that the non-start issue was caused by bad fuel pump.
6. In hindsight, I would have tried to learn how to diagnose a bad fuel pump, rather than just 'hoping' - I have almost zero knowledge or experience with fuel-related processes or issues, and almost zero knowledge or experience of electrical systems. For example, I really don't know how to use a multi-meter. It's on the list...
7. Although it took me some time, it was not particularly difficult to remove the Fuel Tank and refit the replacement one. Just a bit awkward, working beneath the car. And I made sure before I started, to use lots of penetrating fluid on all the bolts - I'm glad I did! I used a combination of long screwdrivers, wire brush, and air compressor to loosen and remove as much dirt, dust and mud as I could both before and after removing the tank. This was also a great time to thoroughly examine the underside of the vehicle, to check for any non-related actual or potential problems - All good I think. I used 2 small trolley jacks underneath the fuel tank to hold it up as I was removing the 6 bolts, and to lower it gradually and gently enough in order to disconnect the various lines. Use same 2 trolley jacks to raise it up and manoeuvre into place in order to refit the mounting bolts.
8. Fuel pump on replacement tank was secured correctly. I took it off, in order to check out the condition inside the tank. Didn't really know what I was looking for, beyond the obvious - bad looking wires, loose or broken bits, and a clean tank. If I knew how to 'test' the Fuel Pump and sending float units at this point, I would have done that.
9. My tank that I took off the vehicle had about 1/2 - 3/4 gallon of gas in, so I assume this is what the AAA person put in.
10. I cleaned all wiring connection and fuel connection areas gently but thoroughly, so that there was not any remaining dust or dirt that would have potentially caused bad and leaky connections. I used a small amount of dialectic grease on the wiring connections. All connectors fit back together with nice 'clicks', and without needing to be 'forced'.
11. I re-used my original rubber green gas tank gasket, since it was newer than the replacement one, and looked and felt to be in perfect condition still.
12. After getting the replacement tank and all connections installed, put some gas in tank. Only had about 2 gallons at home at that point, so that's all I put in the tank.
13. P.s. The vehicle has a new Battery. Old one was with the car when I picked it up about 4 years ago, it shows a manufacture date of 2013, it was not a very powerful battery, and I have had several starting issues over the past 9 months or so. New battery is much more powerful. It was on the list to swap it out before winter anyway - Midwest winters are hard on Batteries.
14. Attempted to start. Good news, Starter motor engaged perfectly, no issues in that department I don't think, and it seems to cranks much stronger with the new battery.
15. Did not start the engine, however.
16. Went to gas station and got enough gas to fill the tank halfway.
17. Good news, the instrument cluster analog gas gauge needle is now working! Shows half full tank, which is about right. I think there's about 10 gallons in there. Which means the replacement fuel tank sending float units are working, which is a good sign. I guess I can consider that issue fixed.
18. Tried to start it several times. Doesn't start.
19. No error codes or check engine light.
20. I have a 'basic' code reader. Definitely not as good as, e.g Gap IIDTool (yes, I know, I should just buy one...), but the one I have was only about $50, and actually works very well for that price, in my opinion. Example, reads and clears Air Suspension codes, etc. And has identified all other error codes I have had, and has successfully cleared them after I have fixed the root cause problem.
21. Did some more research.
22. Learned that the Fuel Pump should make a noise before starting, as soon as key is moved to position 2 (final position before turning key to crank engine). Apparently to prime the system, to provide enough fuel pressure, for engine to start? Anyway, I can clearly hear this, each time I turn the key to position number 2. Low humming sound, lasting for about 2 seconds, with a couple of quiet clicking type noises.
23. The previous Fuel Pump also DEFINITELY made the same noise. And this noise was the same, both before it had the starting issue, and after.
24. Question - Is it possible for the Fuel Pump to somehow not work properly EVEN IF it makes the 'priming' noise?
25. Seller of Fuel Tank deals with Land Rovers only, and said they drove it into the shop before dismantling. Also has a warranty.
26. The engine bay Fuel Pump Relay (R8) also makes a 'click' sound, suggesting the Relay and Relay Socket is ok. I also swapped this Relay with another one in the Relay panel which had EXACTLY the same identification markings and numbers. Same result, click. Further suggesting that the Relay is ok. I had my son listen for this click, and I also swapped places with him, so that I could hear it myself.
27. I checked what I think are the 'obvious' possible other Relays and fuses in the engine bay box and also the interior passenger side glovebox fuse box - Did not see any visible damage or blown fuses, but did not test them, and also did not test the Fuse sockets. Because I don't know how to, because I don't know how to use a multi-meter..... yet.
28. Random - Someone on youtube had an LR3, I think it must have been the 4l V6 engine, and he had starting issues which were fixed by disconnecting a Spark Plug wire -
29. Question - How do I test that Fuel is getting pumped into the engine? At the correct pressure?
30. Apparently the 08 does NOT have a Fuel Line Shrader Valve that you can use to check fuel pressure - I saw a video that showed an LR3 with a shrader valve in engine bay, but I think this was an 05 model? And / or the V6, vs (my) V8?
31. How do I check that there is a 'spark'?
32. Do I have a potential ECU issue?
33. There were some error codes when I first used my code reader, but I cleared them, without writing them down, thinking that they would return after I tried to start teh vehicle again.
34. There have never been any instrument cluster error codes or messages. Check engine light bulb works, but there is not a check engine light problem.
35. Possible Camshaft Sensor problem? How to diagnose?
36. Possible Crankcase Sensor problem? How to diagnose?
37. Should I be able to hear the Fuel Pump 'running', before or after the car starts successfully (Engine noise probably drowns out the sound of Pump, correct?
38. Is there a fuel pump killswitch that I need to reset, perhaps somewhere in engine bay?
39. Can someone explain to me how to test the original fuel pump, to see if it works ok? Out of curiosity? I'm assuming I just need to attach it to a 12v battery (I have a spare marine battery). What pins do I connect? Likelihood of me damaging or burning something out if I do it wrong? Teach me please how to test using a multimeter as well! Since I could hear both Fuel Pumps priming, and since the car still does not start with replacement pump, I'm going to assume that the issue is not caused by bad Fuel Pump, but I want to confirm this with fact-based data.
40. Car has been running extremely smoothly, with zero issues.
41. I clean the MAF every 5,000 miles or so. Carefully. Using the proper cleaner.
42. I had a proper BG fuel system cleaning done a couple of years ago - Do I need to check and clean the throttle body intake area?
43. This vehicle does not have a separate fuel filter, correct?
44. Nearest Stealership is only 5 minutes away. They have proven themselves to be very wrong before, have been going through Service Managers, and the average age of technician is approximately 11. As a last resort, I may get them involved.
45. Final comment, I am leaning towards the problem somehow being related to (almost definitely) running out of gas. Just not sure where to go from here.
Thanks everybody for taking the day off to read this.
Any advice would be greatly appreciated.
Cheers,
Simon in Madison, Wisconsin
(Can be seen around town driving my daughter's 2007 Chevy Malibu Maxx LTZ )
Looking for some advice please.
Car won't start. 2008 LR3 V8 HSE USA spec.
Sorry for long post - figured more info is better than not enough. I have numbered the information below, to make it easier for people to comment.
1. Daughter was driving car. Sitting in parking lot, engine at idle speed, in Park. Engine stalled and died. Would not restart. AAA came along, put about 1/2 - 3/4 gallon of gas in (probably not Premium Grade, not sure if that matters). Would not start. AAA tech probably did some testing of Starter Motor / Alternator / Battery. Apparently said everything was ok, and apparently said I probably need a new Fuel Pump. Towed back to house. Apparently no warning lights on dash, before vehicle died.
2. It was on my list to replace the entire Fuel Tank anyway, because the gas gauge has been acting up - Starting from about 9 months ago, it has been very slow to move up to the 'full' position, after filling up with gas. Also, the 'miles until empty' digital reading has been similarly very slow to count upwards, after filling with gas. Fast forward to a couple of months ago, and the gas gauge completely failed (hence has been showing as completely empty since then). I do take the vehicle off-road, and am assuming that somehow I dislodged or broke 1 or both of the fuel tank fuel sender float units, by landing on a rock or tree stump. I have done enough research to know that I did not want to replace the 'front' sending float unit, within the fuel tank, because apparently very difficult, and also by the time I had purchased (new) both sender float units separately, (because did not know if one or both were broken) I would be getting close to the price of a used Fuel Tank with both sender float units and also Fuel Pump still installed. Found a used tank with both sending float units and fuel pump for $230, shipped, with a warranty. Hoping at this point that the root cause of non-start issue was simply a bad fuel pump.
3. Swapped out the replacement fuel tank this past weekend. Thank you to the excellent advice on this Forum, especially this one from Tom R - https://landroverforums.com/forum/lr...as-tank-74812/
4. I had been trying to figure out the best way to remove the Gas from the tank, hoping that I could snake a small diameter tube down into tank from the gas fill pipe, siphon out, I searched online, tried a few different tubes, without success. Figured I would need to just undo the rubber semi-flexible pipe that connects to the rear of the gas tank, and somehow get enough pans situated underneath to minimize getting me and the driveway drenched in gasoline. Came up with a cunning plan - Use a wide diameter flexible hose from a shop vac, so that I could quickly put over the short (2" long) rigid tube at end of fuel tank, with other end in a very large container. Well, all the thought, concern and planning that went into 'gas removal' was unnecessary - Disconnected the pipe, and the anticipated river of gas did not happen. Couple of drops. In other words, gas tank probably almost completely empty.
5. Which means the reason the vehicle sputtered and died is because it probably ran out of gas. Wife and daughter told me there was gas in it, and I knew the AAA driver put some in, therefore I had no reason to add any more, before swapping the tank. And besides, I knew I needed to swap out the tank to try to fix the gas gauge issue, so I just decided at this point to continue, hoping that the non-start issue was caused by bad fuel pump.
6. In hindsight, I would have tried to learn how to diagnose a bad fuel pump, rather than just 'hoping' - I have almost zero knowledge or experience with fuel-related processes or issues, and almost zero knowledge or experience of electrical systems. For example, I really don't know how to use a multi-meter. It's on the list...
7. Although it took me some time, it was not particularly difficult to remove the Fuel Tank and refit the replacement one. Just a bit awkward, working beneath the car. And I made sure before I started, to use lots of penetrating fluid on all the bolts - I'm glad I did! I used a combination of long screwdrivers, wire brush, and air compressor to loosen and remove as much dirt, dust and mud as I could both before and after removing the tank. This was also a great time to thoroughly examine the underside of the vehicle, to check for any non-related actual or potential problems - All good I think. I used 2 small trolley jacks underneath the fuel tank to hold it up as I was removing the 6 bolts, and to lower it gradually and gently enough in order to disconnect the various lines. Use same 2 trolley jacks to raise it up and manoeuvre into place in order to refit the mounting bolts.
8. Fuel pump on replacement tank was secured correctly. I took it off, in order to check out the condition inside the tank. Didn't really know what I was looking for, beyond the obvious - bad looking wires, loose or broken bits, and a clean tank. If I knew how to 'test' the Fuel Pump and sending float units at this point, I would have done that.
9. My tank that I took off the vehicle had about 1/2 - 3/4 gallon of gas in, so I assume this is what the AAA person put in.
10. I cleaned all wiring connection and fuel connection areas gently but thoroughly, so that there was not any remaining dust or dirt that would have potentially caused bad and leaky connections. I used a small amount of dialectic grease on the wiring connections. All connectors fit back together with nice 'clicks', and without needing to be 'forced'.
11. I re-used my original rubber green gas tank gasket, since it was newer than the replacement one, and looked and felt to be in perfect condition still.
12. After getting the replacement tank and all connections installed, put some gas in tank. Only had about 2 gallons at home at that point, so that's all I put in the tank.
13. P.s. The vehicle has a new Battery. Old one was with the car when I picked it up about 4 years ago, it shows a manufacture date of 2013, it was not a very powerful battery, and I have had several starting issues over the past 9 months or so. New battery is much more powerful. It was on the list to swap it out before winter anyway - Midwest winters are hard on Batteries.
14. Attempted to start. Good news, Starter motor engaged perfectly, no issues in that department I don't think, and it seems to cranks much stronger with the new battery.
15. Did not start the engine, however.
16. Went to gas station and got enough gas to fill the tank halfway.
17. Good news, the instrument cluster analog gas gauge needle is now working! Shows half full tank, which is about right. I think there's about 10 gallons in there. Which means the replacement fuel tank sending float units are working, which is a good sign. I guess I can consider that issue fixed.
18. Tried to start it several times. Doesn't start.
19. No error codes or check engine light.
20. I have a 'basic' code reader. Definitely not as good as, e.g Gap IIDTool (yes, I know, I should just buy one...), but the one I have was only about $50, and actually works very well for that price, in my opinion. Example, reads and clears Air Suspension codes, etc. And has identified all other error codes I have had, and has successfully cleared them after I have fixed the root cause problem.
21. Did some more research.
22. Learned that the Fuel Pump should make a noise before starting, as soon as key is moved to position 2 (final position before turning key to crank engine). Apparently to prime the system, to provide enough fuel pressure, for engine to start? Anyway, I can clearly hear this, each time I turn the key to position number 2. Low humming sound, lasting for about 2 seconds, with a couple of quiet clicking type noises.
23. The previous Fuel Pump also DEFINITELY made the same noise. And this noise was the same, both before it had the starting issue, and after.
24. Question - Is it possible for the Fuel Pump to somehow not work properly EVEN IF it makes the 'priming' noise?
25. Seller of Fuel Tank deals with Land Rovers only, and said they drove it into the shop before dismantling. Also has a warranty.
26. The engine bay Fuel Pump Relay (R8) also makes a 'click' sound, suggesting the Relay and Relay Socket is ok. I also swapped this Relay with another one in the Relay panel which had EXACTLY the same identification markings and numbers. Same result, click. Further suggesting that the Relay is ok. I had my son listen for this click, and I also swapped places with him, so that I could hear it myself.
27. I checked what I think are the 'obvious' possible other Relays and fuses in the engine bay box and also the interior passenger side glovebox fuse box - Did not see any visible damage or blown fuses, but did not test them, and also did not test the Fuse sockets. Because I don't know how to, because I don't know how to use a multi-meter..... yet.
28. Random - Someone on youtube had an LR3, I think it must have been the 4l V6 engine, and he had starting issues which were fixed by disconnecting a Spark Plug wire -
29. Question - How do I test that Fuel is getting pumped into the engine? At the correct pressure?
30. Apparently the 08 does NOT have a Fuel Line Shrader Valve that you can use to check fuel pressure - I saw a video that showed an LR3 with a shrader valve in engine bay, but I think this was an 05 model? And / or the V6, vs (my) V8?
31. How do I check that there is a 'spark'?
32. Do I have a potential ECU issue?
33. There were some error codes when I first used my code reader, but I cleared them, without writing them down, thinking that they would return after I tried to start teh vehicle again.
34. There have never been any instrument cluster error codes or messages. Check engine light bulb works, but there is not a check engine light problem.
35. Possible Camshaft Sensor problem? How to diagnose?
36. Possible Crankcase Sensor problem? How to diagnose?
37. Should I be able to hear the Fuel Pump 'running', before or after the car starts successfully (Engine noise probably drowns out the sound of Pump, correct?
38. Is there a fuel pump killswitch that I need to reset, perhaps somewhere in engine bay?
39. Can someone explain to me how to test the original fuel pump, to see if it works ok? Out of curiosity? I'm assuming I just need to attach it to a 12v battery (I have a spare marine battery). What pins do I connect? Likelihood of me damaging or burning something out if I do it wrong? Teach me please how to test using a multimeter as well! Since I could hear both Fuel Pumps priming, and since the car still does not start with replacement pump, I'm going to assume that the issue is not caused by bad Fuel Pump, but I want to confirm this with fact-based data.
40. Car has been running extremely smoothly, with zero issues.
41. I clean the MAF every 5,000 miles or so. Carefully. Using the proper cleaner.
42. I had a proper BG fuel system cleaning done a couple of years ago - Do I need to check and clean the throttle body intake area?
43. This vehicle does not have a separate fuel filter, correct?
44. Nearest Stealership is only 5 minutes away. They have proven themselves to be very wrong before, have been going through Service Managers, and the average age of technician is approximately 11. As a last resort, I may get them involved.
45. Final comment, I am leaning towards the problem somehow being related to (almost definitely) running out of gas. Just not sure where to go from here.
Thanks everybody for taking the day off to read this.
Any advice would be greatly appreciated.
Cheers,
Simon in Madison, Wisconsin
(Can be seen around town driving my daughter's 2007 Chevy Malibu Maxx LTZ )
Thread Starter
|
Mudding
Joined: Feb 2014
Posts: 196
Likes: 55
From: Madison, WI
Happy Friday,
Update - Just got back into town. Had a chance this week to do some more research on potential cause and fix.
Here's my plan -
1. Do a hard ECU reset. (Touch both disconnected Battery wires together). I don't expect it to work, but I guess it doesn't hurt.
2. Today I ordered a Gap IIDTool from Lucky 8. Excellent people. Obviously should have listened to all of you and picked one up ages ago. I'm hoping this will help diagnose the issue. Or at least provide me with some more specific fact-based information to point me in the right direction.
3. I learned to use a multi-meter this week, courtesy of the YouTube. Will be testing ALL vehicle Relays and Fuses, along with testing that they are receiving power.
4. I still don't know how to test for correct fuel pressure going into Engine. I may pickup one of these, if I can figure out how to use it, and how to connect to the vehicle - https://www.harborfreight.com/master...kit-62788.html Perhaps not the best version available, but there's a Harbor Freight store 10 minutes from me.
5. Of course I'm thinking about the worst case $ scenario, and apparently a dead Engine ECU seems to be the most expensive cause for non-starting vehicle. Apparently you CANNOT throw a used unit in there (even though they are widely available for sale) - Cannot be programmed to a different vehicle. Only option is to buy new, and get it programmed. Apparently my new Gap Tool will do this, but hopefully I won't need to confirm this... Anyway, anybody know the cheapest place to pickup a new Engine ECU, if on fact that's what I need? (After exhausting all other options). Seems like they're in the $1500 range. If the Gap Tool cannot connect / communicate with Engine ECU, that's a bad sign - Would be great if someone could provide info on the steps to go through, to confirm a connection to the ECU - What codes or words should I be seeing withing the Gap Tool App?
6. Relating to Engine ECU, found this advice, to access and remove - First, pull the battery. One should let it cycle down before doing so. Next you need to remove the 4 wheel drive control module. Here is how it is done - 1. Remove the 4 wheel drive control module cover. It is directly behind the battery, depress two clip on the upper right and left side to remove black plastic cover. 2. Remove the plugs connected to the module. There are 3. Remove the smallest one first working to the largest. 3. The module is held in place by two plastic retaining clips on the top left and right. lift pull and release the module. Now for the ECU - 1. Remove the two plugs on top. Pretty standard for ecu's. 2. The ecu and black plastic cover (same thing that held the other ecu in place, are attached with 4 screws left and right toward the top. I was told these were Torx but mine were, in honor of the Queen, 7/32 English. It only takes a few turns for each, they don't need to be removed. Cover and ecu can now be removed. 30 minutes once started.
7. Look for signs of water damage and corrosion, anywhere there is wiring / connections / fuses / electrical components. If taking apart to clean, use the proper electrical contact spray cleaner, and dialectric grease when reconnecting.
Wish me luck,
Simon
Update - Just got back into town. Had a chance this week to do some more research on potential cause and fix.
Here's my plan -
1. Do a hard ECU reset. (Touch both disconnected Battery wires together). I don't expect it to work, but I guess it doesn't hurt.
2. Today I ordered a Gap IIDTool from Lucky 8. Excellent people. Obviously should have listened to all of you and picked one up ages ago. I'm hoping this will help diagnose the issue. Or at least provide me with some more specific fact-based information to point me in the right direction.
3. I learned to use a multi-meter this week, courtesy of the YouTube. Will be testing ALL vehicle Relays and Fuses, along with testing that they are receiving power.
4. I still don't know how to test for correct fuel pressure going into Engine. I may pickup one of these, if I can figure out how to use it, and how to connect to the vehicle - https://www.harborfreight.com/master...kit-62788.html Perhaps not the best version available, but there's a Harbor Freight store 10 minutes from me.
5. Of course I'm thinking about the worst case $ scenario, and apparently a dead Engine ECU seems to be the most expensive cause for non-starting vehicle. Apparently you CANNOT throw a used unit in there (even though they are widely available for sale) - Cannot be programmed to a different vehicle. Only option is to buy new, and get it programmed. Apparently my new Gap Tool will do this, but hopefully I won't need to confirm this... Anyway, anybody know the cheapest place to pickup a new Engine ECU, if on fact that's what I need? (After exhausting all other options). Seems like they're in the $1500 range. If the Gap Tool cannot connect / communicate with Engine ECU, that's a bad sign - Would be great if someone could provide info on the steps to go through, to confirm a connection to the ECU - What codes or words should I be seeing withing the Gap Tool App?
6. Relating to Engine ECU, found this advice, to access and remove - First, pull the battery. One should let it cycle down before doing so. Next you need to remove the 4 wheel drive control module. Here is how it is done - 1. Remove the 4 wheel drive control module cover. It is directly behind the battery, depress two clip on the upper right and left side to remove black plastic cover. 2. Remove the plugs connected to the module. There are 3. Remove the smallest one first working to the largest. 3. The module is held in place by two plastic retaining clips on the top left and right. lift pull and release the module. Now for the ECU - 1. Remove the two plugs on top. Pretty standard for ecu's. 2. The ecu and black plastic cover (same thing that held the other ecu in place, are attached with 4 screws left and right toward the top. I was told these were Torx but mine were, in honor of the Queen, 7/32 English. It only takes a few turns for each, they don't need to be removed. Cover and ecu can now be removed. 30 minutes once started.
7. Look for signs of water damage and corrosion, anywhere there is wiring / connections / fuses / electrical components. If taking apart to clean, use the proper electrical contact spray cleaner, and dialectric grease when reconnecting.
Wish me luck,
Simon
1. Never hurts
2. Best choice you have made since buying a LR3
3. A handy skill that will serve you well
4. I am useless on this one, but always love a trip to harbor freight
5. Not likely the problem at all
6. Leave it be till we can see what the gap tool tells us
7. Also check the loom in the passenger side rocker for anything out of the ordinary
2. Best choice you have made since buying a LR3
3. A handy skill that will serve you well
4. I am useless on this one, but always love a trip to harbor freight
5. Not likely the problem at all
6. Leave it be till we can see what the gap tool tells us
7. Also check the loom in the passenger side rocker for anything out of the ordinary
Thread Starter
|
Mudding
Joined: Feb 2014
Posts: 196
Likes: 55
From: Madison, WI
Hi Everybody,
Reporting back with an update -
1. The GAP Diagnostics IIDTool (Bluetooth) arrived yesterday. Successfully installed the software and App onto laptop and android cellphone. And successfully connected to car to read and clear error codes.
2. Car still does not start (actually did not expect it to until I actually repair something).
3. Performed several rounds of error code reading and clearing, to see which ones 'stayed'. 3 are remaining.
4. Link to screenshot image from cellphone app - https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B-e...ew?usp=sharing
5. The one code that I think may possibly be connected to the non-start issue is the first, top, one - Airbag. B1212-1B (AF) Driver safety belt buckle pretensioner deployment control - General electrical failure - circuit resistance above threshold.
6. I'm reading words such as airbag, driver safety, and belt buckle, and thinking that perhaps there is some sort of 'kill-switch' mechanism that prevents the engine from starting if this error code exists? Especially because there is also a 'check engine' symbol at the top of this error code, which I could argue is translating to meaning that somehow there is a 'connection' between the engine and this error code? Sidenote - The IIDTool legend / key for this symbol is "MIL Requested", and my understanding is that 'MIL' stands for 'Malfunction Indicator Lamp', which is another way of saying 'Check Engine Light'.
7. I have done some preliminary research for code B1212-1B (AF), and it basically means there's an issue with the wires or connectors beneath the driver seat, commonly because the wires are too tight, perhaps caught on something, and therefore putting too much pressure on the connectors, causing a bad electrical connection. Link to official Land Rover Technical Bulletin - - https://disco3.co.uk/gallery/albums/...uble_Codes.pdf
8. I therefore plan to get under the driver seat today and make sure all wires and connections are ok. It would be AWESOME if this is the reason for the big white decorative ornament that has been sitting on the driveway for 3 weeks...
9. Would be great however is others could confirm that this either is, is not, or 'maybe' the reason why the vehicle does not start.
10. As a newbie to the Gap Tool, any other advice will also be appreciated. Of course I do plan on spending some quality time with the extensive User Guide.
11. As I mentioned in a previous message, apparently the worst case scenario, cost-wise, would be if my current Engine ECU (computer, behind engine bay fuse box / behind battery), is broken. How do I use the IIDTool to determine if I can 'see' the Engine ECU? Assuming that the tool is unable to see it, if it is dead, how do I figure this out? Will there be a fault code if the Engine ECU is totally dead?
12. Fuel delivery. Will there usually be a fault code if there is an issue with fuel getting from gas tank into engine?
Thanks, Simon
Reporting back with an update -
1. The GAP Diagnostics IIDTool (Bluetooth) arrived yesterday. Successfully installed the software and App onto laptop and android cellphone. And successfully connected to car to read and clear error codes.
2. Car still does not start (actually did not expect it to until I actually repair something).
3. Performed several rounds of error code reading and clearing, to see which ones 'stayed'. 3 are remaining.
4. Link to screenshot image from cellphone app - https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B-e...ew?usp=sharing
5. The one code that I think may possibly be connected to the non-start issue is the first, top, one - Airbag. B1212-1B (AF) Driver safety belt buckle pretensioner deployment control - General electrical failure - circuit resistance above threshold.
6. I'm reading words such as airbag, driver safety, and belt buckle, and thinking that perhaps there is some sort of 'kill-switch' mechanism that prevents the engine from starting if this error code exists? Especially because there is also a 'check engine' symbol at the top of this error code, which I could argue is translating to meaning that somehow there is a 'connection' between the engine and this error code? Sidenote - The IIDTool legend / key for this symbol is "MIL Requested", and my understanding is that 'MIL' stands for 'Malfunction Indicator Lamp', which is another way of saying 'Check Engine Light'.
7. I have done some preliminary research for code B1212-1B (AF), and it basically means there's an issue with the wires or connectors beneath the driver seat, commonly because the wires are too tight, perhaps caught on something, and therefore putting too much pressure on the connectors, causing a bad electrical connection. Link to official Land Rover Technical Bulletin - - https://disco3.co.uk/gallery/albums/...uble_Codes.pdf
8. I therefore plan to get under the driver seat today and make sure all wires and connections are ok. It would be AWESOME if this is the reason for the big white decorative ornament that has been sitting on the driveway for 3 weeks...
9. Would be great however is others could confirm that this either is, is not, or 'maybe' the reason why the vehicle does not start.
10. As a newbie to the Gap Tool, any other advice will also be appreciated. Of course I do plan on spending some quality time with the extensive User Guide.
11. As I mentioned in a previous message, apparently the worst case scenario, cost-wise, would be if my current Engine ECU (computer, behind engine bay fuse box / behind battery), is broken. How do I use the IIDTool to determine if I can 'see' the Engine ECU? Assuming that the tool is unable to see it, if it is dead, how do I figure this out? Will there be a fault code if the Engine ECU is totally dead?
12. Fuel delivery. Will there usually be a fault code if there is an issue with fuel getting from gas tank into engine?
Thanks, Simon
It would probably give a can bus error for the specified ecu it can't find or check sum error. Something on those lines. How many ecu's did it find when it linked up? I can scan my truck and see if we match up on numbers of ecu's at least. I keep thinking it was 14 ecu's but I'm not positive
Thread Starter
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Mudding
Joined: Feb 2014
Posts: 196
Likes: 55
From: Madison, WI
Thanks ArmyRover. Sorry I didn't get back to you. I've actually arranged for a Mechanic to be onsite Wednesday morning, which is why I haven't done much more self-diagnosis on this issue. Except I did manage to clear the B1212-1B (AF) error code - Took front seat out, examined and cleaned all connections and wiring harnesses below seat, used electrical cleaner, re-connected, and the code seems to have permanently cleared, suggesting I had a small wiring connection issue. Unfortunately, this didn't fix my issue. Still no-start. I'm figuring the mechanic will be able to check for spark vs fuel issue, check the electric circuitry, and so on. And we'll go from there. I will report back.
Thread Starter
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Mudding
Joined: Feb 2014
Posts: 196
Likes: 55
From: Madison, WI
Update, good news, issue was Fuel Pump / Fuel Line related.
LR3 now starts just fine. It's a very nice sound. I have missed that sound.
Here's what I think happened, but I may be wrong -
1. Ran out of gas.
2. AAA put a small amount of gas in.
3. Maybe not enough, and / or enough to partially dissolve some crud in gas tank and suck it into the fuel pump and fuel line, thus preventing the fuel from reaching the engine at a high enough pressure.
4. The Replacement Fuel Pump (within the replacement Gas Tank) did not fix the issue.
5. Why not? I think because of 2 combined reasons. First, there was some dirt in the replacement Pump, it had a small crack on the underside, and when removed and tested it did not pump Gas at a high enough pressure. In other words, the Pump worked 'enough' so that I could hear it 'priming', but was not working properly. Secondly, remember at this point there is still probably some crud in the fuel line which attaches to the Pump, thus gas not able to get into engine at high enough pressure.
4. When I re-attached my original Pump, after flushing it out in some clean gas just in case, with gas tank not bolted on but with electrical connector attached and fuel line attached to pump but not connected to the fuel line that goes to the engine, after starting the engine some crud immediately shot out of the fuel line, and the fuel pressure was much stronger than the (probably defected) replacement Fuel Pump.
5. So, attached fuel lines from Pump to Engine, and after a few cranks it started right up. Relief!
But (there has to be a but, it is after all a Land Rover)...
1. Fuel Gauge still does not work.
2. Probably because the Fuel Sender that it attached to the Pump, which is labelled 'Rear', which after some research is apparently called #1, is bad. Or the wiring or a connection relating to this Sender (Float) is probably bad. Somewhere from Sender to Instrument Cluster.
3. I'm doing some further testing tonight, but here is what I know -
4. With engine on, GAP IID Tool shows Sender 1 at 0.9 volts and Sender 2 at 4.9 volts.
5. What does this mean? Does the lower voltage on #1 suggest an issue with #1? Should they be same voltage?
6. Does the GAP tool measure resistance (Ohms) of each separate Sender?
7. How do you remove the Sender from the Fuel Pump? I don't see any obvious clips, I want to swap one out to test it, but I don't want to break anything. However, I have heard of people swapping out this Sender, and it is available to purchase separate from the Fuel Pump.
8. I have NOT yet tested the resistance of the Rear Sender that is currently attached to the Fuel Pump, or tested the resistance of the other (Front, extremely difficult to get at) Sender. Will do that tonight.
9. But I did test the resistance of 2 other Rear Senders, (attached to 2 other Fuel Pumps) and they were both the same - About 50 ohms when the Float Arm was horizontal, i.e. simulating Empty, and the ohms increased gradually and evenly as I slowly raised the arm, and topped out at almost 1000 ohms when I could raise the arm no more. The fact that these both had the same readings suggests that they are both working ok, right? So, again, Looking for advice on how to remove Sender from Fuel Pump.
10. Is there a possible Software Update that would 'reset' (fix) the gas gauge issue?
11. Any suggestions on how to use the GAP tool to further diagnose and fix?
That's all for now,
Can't wait to get this all fixed so that I can play around with the GAP tool more,
Cheers,
Simon
LR3 now starts just fine. It's a very nice sound. I have missed that sound.
Here's what I think happened, but I may be wrong -
1. Ran out of gas.
2. AAA put a small amount of gas in.
3. Maybe not enough, and / or enough to partially dissolve some crud in gas tank and suck it into the fuel pump and fuel line, thus preventing the fuel from reaching the engine at a high enough pressure.
4. The Replacement Fuel Pump (within the replacement Gas Tank) did not fix the issue.
5. Why not? I think because of 2 combined reasons. First, there was some dirt in the replacement Pump, it had a small crack on the underside, and when removed and tested it did not pump Gas at a high enough pressure. In other words, the Pump worked 'enough' so that I could hear it 'priming', but was not working properly. Secondly, remember at this point there is still probably some crud in the fuel line which attaches to the Pump, thus gas not able to get into engine at high enough pressure.
4. When I re-attached my original Pump, after flushing it out in some clean gas just in case, with gas tank not bolted on but with electrical connector attached and fuel line attached to pump but not connected to the fuel line that goes to the engine, after starting the engine some crud immediately shot out of the fuel line, and the fuel pressure was much stronger than the (probably defected) replacement Fuel Pump.
5. So, attached fuel lines from Pump to Engine, and after a few cranks it started right up. Relief!
But (there has to be a but, it is after all a Land Rover)...
1. Fuel Gauge still does not work.
2. Probably because the Fuel Sender that it attached to the Pump, which is labelled 'Rear', which after some research is apparently called #1, is bad. Or the wiring or a connection relating to this Sender (Float) is probably bad. Somewhere from Sender to Instrument Cluster.
3. I'm doing some further testing tonight, but here is what I know -
4. With engine on, GAP IID Tool shows Sender 1 at 0.9 volts and Sender 2 at 4.9 volts.
5. What does this mean? Does the lower voltage on #1 suggest an issue with #1? Should they be same voltage?
6. Does the GAP tool measure resistance (Ohms) of each separate Sender?
7. How do you remove the Sender from the Fuel Pump? I don't see any obvious clips, I want to swap one out to test it, but I don't want to break anything. However, I have heard of people swapping out this Sender, and it is available to purchase separate from the Fuel Pump.
8. I have NOT yet tested the resistance of the Rear Sender that is currently attached to the Fuel Pump, or tested the resistance of the other (Front, extremely difficult to get at) Sender. Will do that tonight.
9. But I did test the resistance of 2 other Rear Senders, (attached to 2 other Fuel Pumps) and they were both the same - About 50 ohms when the Float Arm was horizontal, i.e. simulating Empty, and the ohms increased gradually and evenly as I slowly raised the arm, and topped out at almost 1000 ohms when I could raise the arm no more. The fact that these both had the same readings suggests that they are both working ok, right? So, again, Looking for advice on how to remove Sender from Fuel Pump.
10. Is there a possible Software Update that would 'reset' (fix) the gas gauge issue?
11. Any suggestions on how to use the GAP tool to further diagnose and fix?
That's all for now,
Can't wait to get this all fixed so that I can play around with the GAP tool more,
Cheers,
Simon
Thread Starter
|
Mudding
Joined: Feb 2014
Posts: 196
Likes: 55
From: Madison, WI
Hi Everybody,
Reporting back, to close the loop -
Good news, gas gauge is now also fixed, and the car is starting and running perfectly.
I used a multimeter to test the Ohms of the various Fuel Senders that I had, at various angles, and also test the electrical connectors. Fortunately I had a Fuel Tank with a good working Front (very difficult to get at) Fuel Sender, so I used this Fuel Tank, along with the best quality Fuel Pump and Rear Sender (attached to fuel Pump).
Very easy to remove the Fuel Sender that is attached to the Fuel Pump - carefully wedge a small screwdriver inbetween the back of the Sender and the outside of the Fuel Pump, to create a 'gap' of about 2mm, and this will release 2 'notches' and allow the Sender to be slid down and off the Fuel Pump.
Sidenote, I had a spare Gas Tank with a non-working Front (difficult) Sender, so I decided to sacrifice this one in the name of 'research' and saw the end off to examine exactly how the Front Sender is attached. At some point I will post detailed photos, and perhaps a video, to show exactly how to release and re-attach this Sender (but you will need very long and thin arms!).
Nice to be up and running again with a working Fuel Gauge.
Cheers, Simon
Reporting back, to close the loop -
Good news, gas gauge is now also fixed, and the car is starting and running perfectly.
I used a multimeter to test the Ohms of the various Fuel Senders that I had, at various angles, and also test the electrical connectors. Fortunately I had a Fuel Tank with a good working Front (very difficult to get at) Fuel Sender, so I used this Fuel Tank, along with the best quality Fuel Pump and Rear Sender (attached to fuel Pump).
Very easy to remove the Fuel Sender that is attached to the Fuel Pump - carefully wedge a small screwdriver inbetween the back of the Sender and the outside of the Fuel Pump, to create a 'gap' of about 2mm, and this will release 2 'notches' and allow the Sender to be slid down and off the Fuel Pump.
Sidenote, I had a spare Gas Tank with a non-working Front (difficult) Sender, so I decided to sacrifice this one in the name of 'research' and saw the end off to examine exactly how the Front Sender is attached. At some point I will post detailed photos, and perhaps a video, to show exactly how to release and re-attach this Sender (but you will need very long and thin arms!).
Nice to be up and running again with a working Fuel Gauge.
Cheers, Simon
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