Super Model With Bad Crack Habit Rehab Build-
#411
06-06-2016, 10:00 AM
All right..............So you had to mention 'swivel preload'.....I just spent the last 45 minutes attempting to learn and possibly look into adjusting.......with out a whole bunch of luck.......
Might you have a good link or instruction on this subject you could point me towards?
I'm new to this axle and don't want to be pointed down the wrong interweb road......
Might you have a good link or instruction on this subject you could point me towards?
I'm new to this axle and don't want to be pointed down the wrong interweb road......
#412
06-06-2016, 11:24 AM
Yes, toe out is normal alignment on a Land Rover. The reason is actually quite simple. The "toe-in" you're accustomed to is for rear-wheel drive cars and trucks, or part-time 4x4's that are rear-wheel drive on the road. The thrust from the rear tends to spread the wheels at the front, so a slightly toed-in static alignment typically works best. The "give" that changes the alignment under load is typically in the bushings, or simply bending, stretching, or compressing metal.
On a vehicle with all wheel drive or front wheel drive, the driving force tends to pull the front of the wheels together. Hence a slight toe-out static alignment works.
The key concept is that we align the cars statically, at rest, but that when driving forces are applied, things move. How and where they move depends on several factors, but without very complex modeling or measuring, we can arrive at the recommended alignment using an educated guess and trial and error. The recommendation for the Rover front axle is about 1/16th of an inch toed-out. More or less than that, you might see uneven tire wear.
If the static toe is set either positive or negative to achieve close to neutral dynamic setting, we will have good alignment and good tire wear. If it is set too far one way or another we have different effects. Although I'm somewhat skeptical excess toe one way or another will cause wobble. My experience is that excessive toe in causes a strong return-to-center. Excessive toe out makes turn initiation easier. Some drivers describe these as reducing oversteer, and reducing understeer respectively. So while excess toe-out might make the car "looser" (more inclined to oversteer), the correct slight amount of toe-out for a AWD or FWD car will not. It will just make it neutral.
On a vehicle with all wheel drive or front wheel drive, the driving force tends to pull the front of the wheels together. Hence a slight toe-out static alignment works.
The key concept is that we align the cars statically, at rest, but that when driving forces are applied, things move. How and where they move depends on several factors, but without very complex modeling or measuring, we can arrive at the recommended alignment using an educated guess and trial and error. The recommendation for the Rover front axle is about 1/16th of an inch toed-out. More or less than that, you might see uneven tire wear.
If the static toe is set either positive or negative to achieve close to neutral dynamic setting, we will have good alignment and good tire wear. If it is set too far one way or another we have different effects. Although I'm somewhat skeptical excess toe one way or another will cause wobble. My experience is that excessive toe in causes a strong return-to-center. Excessive toe out makes turn initiation easier. Some drivers describe these as reducing oversteer, and reducing understeer respectively. So while excess toe-out might make the car "looser" (more inclined to oversteer), the correct slight amount of toe-out for a AWD or FWD car will not. It will just make it neutral.
Last edited by binvanna; 06-06-2016 at 11:26 AM.
#413
06-06-2016, 12:39 PM
First off, your Track Rod is adjustable and sits behind the axle. The Drag Link is also adjustable and runs from the pitman arm down to the passenger side knuckle. The only thing that isn't adjustable is the Panhard Rod which centers the axle and has nothing to do with death wobble(other than possible worn bushings).
Onto Swivel Preload. Think of it as how much resistance there is to turn each wheel left/right. You basically remove the tire, track rod, drag link.
You're supposed to put a fish scale on the housing and measure how many lbs of pull is required to turn it. 15lbs maybe, IDK. If it turns real easy(almost no resistance at all) you'll want to adjust the preload. This is donw by removing the upper pin and taking out a shim from the shim stack. I usually go for the thinnest one first. Bolt the upper pin and remaining shims back in place and see how easy the housing turns. Its a bit or trial and error.
Onto Swivel Preload. Think of it as how much resistance there is to turn each wheel left/right. You basically remove the tire, track rod, drag link.
You're supposed to put a fish scale on the housing and measure how many lbs of pull is required to turn it. 15lbs maybe, IDK. If it turns real easy(almost no resistance at all) you'll want to adjust the preload. This is donw by removing the upper pin and taking out a shim from the shim stack. I usually go for the thinnest one first. Bolt the upper pin and remaining shims back in place and see how easy the housing turns. Its a bit or trial and error.
All right..............So you had to mention 'swivel preload'.....I just spent the last 45 minutes attempting to learn and possibly look into adjusting.......with out a whole bunch of luck.......
Might you have a good link or instruction on this subject you could point me towards?
I'm new to this axle and don't want to be pointed down the wrong interweb road......
Might you have a good link or instruction on this subject you could point me towards?
I'm new to this axle and don't want to be pointed down the wrong interweb road......
#415
06-06-2016, 05:08 PM
Super Moderator
D1 tech section there's a bunch of links
Here's swivel pre load
https://landroverforums.com/forum/di...preload-36607/
Here's swivel pre load
https://landroverforums.com/forum/di...preload-36607/
#416
06-06-2016, 05:57 PM
Yes, toe out is normal alignment on a Land Rover. The reason is actually quite simple. The "toe-in" you're accustomed to is for rear-wheel drive cars and trucks, or part-time 4x4's that are rear-wheel drive on the road. The thrust from the rear tends to spread the wheels at the front, so a slightly toed-in static alignment typically works best. The "give" that changes the alignment under load is typically in the bushings, or simply bending, stretching, or compressing metal.
On a vehicle with all wheel drive or front wheel drive, the driving force tends to pull the front of the wheels together. Hence a slight toe-out static alignment works.
The key concept is that we align the cars statically, at rest, but that when driving forces are applied, things move. How and where they move depends on several factors, but without very complex modeling or measuring, we can arrive at the recommended alignment using an educated guess and trial and error. The recommendation for the Rover front axle is about 1/16th of an inch toed-out. More or less than that, you might see uneven tire wear.
If the static toe is set either positive or negative to achieve close to neutral dynamic setting, we will have good alignment and good tire wear. If it is set too far one way or another we have different effects. Although I'm somewhat skeptical excess toe one way or another will cause wobble. My experience is that excessive toe in causes a strong return-to-center. Excessive toe out makes turn initiation easier. Some drivers describe these as reducing oversteer, and reducing understeer respectively. So while excess toe-out might make the car "looser" (more inclined to oversteer), the correct slight amount of toe-out for a AWD or FWD car will not. It will just make it neutral.
On a vehicle with all wheel drive or front wheel drive, the driving force tends to pull the front of the wheels together. Hence a slight toe-out static alignment works.
The key concept is that we align the cars statically, at rest, but that when driving forces are applied, things move. How and where they move depends on several factors, but without very complex modeling or measuring, we can arrive at the recommended alignment using an educated guess and trial and error. The recommendation for the Rover front axle is about 1/16th of an inch toed-out. More or less than that, you might see uneven tire wear.
If the static toe is set either positive or negative to achieve close to neutral dynamic setting, we will have good alignment and good tire wear. If it is set too far one way or another we have different effects. Although I'm somewhat skeptical excess toe one way or another will cause wobble. My experience is that excessive toe in causes a strong return-to-center. Excessive toe out makes turn initiation easier. Some drivers describe these as reducing oversteer, and reducing understeer respectively. So while excess toe-out might make the car "looser" (more inclined to oversteer), the correct slight amount of toe-out for a AWD or FWD car will not. It will just make it neutral.
#417
06-06-2016, 06:09 PM
First off, your Track Rod is adjustable and sits behind the axle. The Drag Link is also adjustable and runs from the pitman arm down to the passenger side knuckle. The only thing that isn't adjustable is the Panhard Rod which centers the axle and has nothing to do with death wobble(other than possible worn bushings).
Onto Swivel Preload. Think of it as how much resistance there is to turn each wheel left/right. You basically remove the tire, track rod, drag link.
You're supposed to put a fish scale on the housing and measure how many lbs of pull is required to turn it. 15lbs maybe, IDK. If it turns real easy(almost no resistance at all) you'll want to adjust the preload. This is donw by removing the upper pin and taking out a shim from the shim stack. I usually go for the thinnest one first. Bolt the upper pin and remaining shims back in place and see how easy the housing turns. Its a bit or trial and error.
Onto Swivel Preload. Think of it as how much resistance there is to turn each wheel left/right. You basically remove the tire, track rod, drag link.
You're supposed to put a fish scale on the housing and measure how many lbs of pull is required to turn it. 15lbs maybe, IDK. If it turns real easy(almost no resistance at all) you'll want to adjust the preload. This is donw by removing the upper pin and taking out a shim from the shim stack. I usually go for the thinnest one first. Bolt the upper pin and remaining shims back in place and see how easy the housing turns. Its a bit or trial and error.
Thank you for the Swivel Preload info.......thank ya thank ya thank ya.....I will look into this further! You da man Fish!
I for get to flip the 'lingo' around when it comes to these things........if I said 'panhard bar' in my old world, I'd be accused of drinking.......hell, spell check must have been created by Jeepers as it gets flagged by them even.....lol!! Our 'panhard' bars should try panning a little harder, pretty poor and under equipped........my 2 cents on that. I'll be building an adjustable one using tie rod ends......they last for 'eva!
Thank you again Fish!
#419
06-06-2016, 06:20 PM
D1 tech section there's a bunch of links
Here's swivel pre load
https://landroverforums.com/forum/di...preload-36607/
Here's swivel pre load
https://landroverforums.com/forum/di...preload-36607/
#420
06-06-2016, 09:18 PM
Super Moderator
Pan hard with tie rod ends suck u should know that from jeeps, I have an 01 diesel 4x4 dodge ram dually, worst part of the front end is that **** pan hard with a ball joint on one end, bushing both ends best IMO for stock or close to stock
Adjustable pan hards for d1 are cheap, only needed if you start jacking her up
Just buy a poly suspension bushing kit u will be fine, again you have to look cause it won't be energy or prothane
Adjustable pan hards for d1 are cheap, only needed if you start jacking her up
Just buy a poly suspension bushing kit u will be fine, again you have to look cause it won't be energy or prothane