Terrafirma bumper installation has me stumped
Thread Starter
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Camel Trophy
Joined: Dec 2009
Posts: 3,883
Likes: 951
From: Charlotte
I sent this message and the pics to Justin mid-morning today and offered him the opportunity to comment to me privately if he wanted to. I've not heard from him, and that's okay.
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I’m going to try to do my best to bring this back to a discussion of the facts as best I know them. I’m also going to try to acknowledge my responsibility and missteps. This will be a long one.
I’m not sure how the phone and order history before I received the bumper is relevant, but yes, I canceled my original order the day after I placed it. I apologize if I mischaracterized Jason’s comments to me before ordering; as I said I was paraphrasing loosely and sharing what I recalled as my takeaway from the conversation. Readers may want to skip down a few paragraphs if this does not interest you.
The reason I cancelled the original order was that although I had settled on the TF and placed the order the morning of June 15 I then quickly realized I had not carefully enough considered how to mount the winch solenoid pack. Anyone so inclined can see that I started a thread on that topic June 15 a little after 12 noon, maybe an hour or two after I placed the original order. The morning of the 16th the solution was still not clear to me to I cancelled the order.
I started another LRF thread the evening of the 16th asking about using longer winch cables because I was looking at mounting the solenoids on the passenger-side firewall. I continued to do my homework that week about the solenoid pack. I went so far as to fabricate a bracket to mount it on the passenger firewall. I tested that concept over the next weekend and being satisfied it would work then again placed an order Monday morning.
In both cases my interest in getting the bumper shipped quickly was that I was looking at having Friday off to give me a three day weekend to get the work done. I asked politely. I did not say it was “critical.” They told me they’d do their best to get it shipped as soon as possible. The bumper got shipped Tuesday afternoon and arrived late Friday afternoon the 26th. Yes I was disappointed, but not at all upset. C’est la vie.
Now back to the bumper itself. As documented above I tried to mount the bumper Saturday morning and found there was no way the bumper would be able to be mounted with a winch without cutting out most of the steel crossmember that sits behind the bottom edge of the grill. Being cautious I waited until Monday to talk with Lucky 8. I spoke with Erik and he confirmed the crossmember would need to be cut. He also confirmed he had done so on a truck he had a couple of years ago with no adverse effects.
And by the way Justin, I didn’t use a tree for mounting purposes, as you wrote, I used a tree to pull the bumper off the truck.
After cutting out the crossmember it was finally on to mounting the winch. By then it was Tuesday. I was ready to finally have the winch “bolt right up.” It didn’t. Others on the forums said they’d needed a hammer and a block of wood to “persuade” the bumper into its final position. One guy even said he’s purposely driven into a tree to bang it home. Another person said he had to “clean up” the welds on the frame at the intersection of the frame horn and what I’ve been calling the frame diagonal. That made some sense to me because that was where there seemed to be a problem. And Justin confirmed this approach. But after carefully hitting those welds with the angle grinder it was clear that wouldn’t solve the problem.
It was clear that the problem was that the triangular parts of the bumper mount that are meant to fit on top of the frame diagonals were standing in the way of the holes lining up correctly.
It’s been suggested that the frame was tweaked in the accident in which my son who was driving the truck was rear-ended, pushing him into the LR4 in front of him. That caused the ARB bumper that was on the truck then to be bent upward. But as I documented in another thread it was the ARB crush cans that bore the brunt of the damage, as they are designed to do. And even if the frame was tweaked beyond that (stay with me here; this is a key point) it would have not changed the geometric relationship between the top of the frame diagonal and the frame mounting holes. They would have been bent upward TOGETHER. If not some damage to the welds would have been evident.
By this time I was into the second weekend of trying to mount a bumper that was, again, supposed to “bolt right up.” It was also the July 4 weekend. This is a key point at which I let my frustrations get the best of me. As I wrote previously I considered stopping work and returning the bumper, but I had a clear understanding of what needed to be done to get it mounted. A Dweb member told me he’d done the same thing. And the truck had already been out of commission for a week. I wish now I had returned it at this point but instead I forged ahead.
At this point the bumper is mounted and I decided to go with a grill from an ’04 that I got at a local boneyard. That required some surgery to the headlight finishers and a creative solution about how to mount them. I’ll save that explanation for another day.
I think it’s possible that the frame horns may have been bent upward slightly from the impact of the accident. That might explain why my original ’99 grill would have had to have been trimmed much more than others have had to do. But as I said earlier in this post that does not explain why the upper triangular parts of the bumper mount needed to be removed to install the bumper. I don’t think the bumper would align as well as it does with the lower edge of the wing if it the frame was bent to any material extent.
So here I am. I have a bumper and a grill setup I can live with. It’s taken me 40+ hours of work plus countless more hours spent thinking about the problems to get to this point and the cost of the ’04 grill. And I still don’t know what some of the hardware pictured in my original post is meant to do. Again, this was a problem with Terrafirma quality control, and I’m not the only person who’s had to take the steps I described. Lucky 8 needs to know that for all the cases in which this bumper bolts right up there are at least several where it doesn’t.
I proceeded at every step of the way in good faith and was met with responses that the cause of the problems was a problem with my truck. A just resolution at this point would be some compensation for my time and effort required to modify a product that was defective, and for the cost of the ’04 grill.
---------------------------------
I’m going to try to do my best to bring this back to a discussion of the facts as best I know them. I’m also going to try to acknowledge my responsibility and missteps. This will be a long one.
I’m not sure how the phone and order history before I received the bumper is relevant, but yes, I canceled my original order the day after I placed it. I apologize if I mischaracterized Jason’s comments to me before ordering; as I said I was paraphrasing loosely and sharing what I recalled as my takeaway from the conversation. Readers may want to skip down a few paragraphs if this does not interest you.
The reason I cancelled the original order was that although I had settled on the TF and placed the order the morning of June 15 I then quickly realized I had not carefully enough considered how to mount the winch solenoid pack. Anyone so inclined can see that I started a thread on that topic June 15 a little after 12 noon, maybe an hour or two after I placed the original order. The morning of the 16th the solution was still not clear to me to I cancelled the order.
I started another LRF thread the evening of the 16th asking about using longer winch cables because I was looking at mounting the solenoids on the passenger-side firewall. I continued to do my homework that week about the solenoid pack. I went so far as to fabricate a bracket to mount it on the passenger firewall. I tested that concept over the next weekend and being satisfied it would work then again placed an order Monday morning.
In both cases my interest in getting the bumper shipped quickly was that I was looking at having Friday off to give me a three day weekend to get the work done. I asked politely. I did not say it was “critical.” They told me they’d do their best to get it shipped as soon as possible. The bumper got shipped Tuesday afternoon and arrived late Friday afternoon the 26th. Yes I was disappointed, but not at all upset. C’est la vie.
Now back to the bumper itself. As documented above I tried to mount the bumper Saturday morning and found there was no way the bumper would be able to be mounted with a winch without cutting out most of the steel crossmember that sits behind the bottom edge of the grill. Being cautious I waited until Monday to talk with Lucky 8. I spoke with Erik and he confirmed the crossmember would need to be cut. He also confirmed he had done so on a truck he had a couple of years ago with no adverse effects.
And by the way Justin, I didn’t use a tree for mounting purposes, as you wrote, I used a tree to pull the bumper off the truck.
After cutting out the crossmember it was finally on to mounting the winch. By then it was Tuesday. I was ready to finally have the winch “bolt right up.” It didn’t. Others on the forums said they’d needed a hammer and a block of wood to “persuade” the bumper into its final position. One guy even said he’s purposely driven into a tree to bang it home. Another person said he had to “clean up” the welds on the frame at the intersection of the frame horn and what I’ve been calling the frame diagonal. That made some sense to me because that was where there seemed to be a problem. And Justin confirmed this approach. But after carefully hitting those welds with the angle grinder it was clear that wouldn’t solve the problem.
It was clear that the problem was that the triangular parts of the bumper mount that are meant to fit on top of the frame diagonals were standing in the way of the holes lining up correctly.
It’s been suggested that the frame was tweaked in the accident in which my son who was driving the truck was rear-ended, pushing him into the LR4 in front of him. That caused the ARB bumper that was on the truck then to be bent upward. But as I documented in another thread it was the ARB crush cans that bore the brunt of the damage, as they are designed to do. And even if the frame was tweaked beyond that (stay with me here; this is a key point) it would have not changed the geometric relationship between the top of the frame diagonal and the frame mounting holes. They would have been bent upward TOGETHER. If not some damage to the welds would have been evident.
By this time I was into the second weekend of trying to mount a bumper that was, again, supposed to “bolt right up.” It was also the July 4 weekend. This is a key point at which I let my frustrations get the best of me. As I wrote previously I considered stopping work and returning the bumper, but I had a clear understanding of what needed to be done to get it mounted. A Dweb member told me he’d done the same thing. And the truck had already been out of commission for a week. I wish now I had returned it at this point but instead I forged ahead.
At this point the bumper is mounted and I decided to go with a grill from an ’04 that I got at a local boneyard. That required some surgery to the headlight finishers and a creative solution about how to mount them. I’ll save that explanation for another day.
I think it’s possible that the frame horns may have been bent upward slightly from the impact of the accident. That might explain why my original ’99 grill would have had to have been trimmed much more than others have had to do. But as I said earlier in this post that does not explain why the upper triangular parts of the bumper mount needed to be removed to install the bumper. I don’t think the bumper would align as well as it does with the lower edge of the wing if it the frame was bent to any material extent.
So here I am. I have a bumper and a grill setup I can live with. It’s taken me 40+ hours of work plus countless more hours spent thinking about the problems to get to this point and the cost of the ’04 grill. And I still don’t know what some of the hardware pictured in my original post is meant to do. Again, this was a problem with Terrafirma quality control, and I’m not the only person who’s had to take the steps I described. Lucky 8 needs to know that for all the cases in which this bumper bolts right up there are at least several where it doesn’t.
I proceeded at every step of the way in good faith and was met with responses that the cause of the problems was a problem with my truck. A just resolution at this point would be some compensation for my time and effort required to modify a product that was defective, and for the cost of the ’04 grill.
Recovery Vehicle
Joined: May 2008
Posts: 811
Likes: 78
From: Howell, NJ
If the company that sold you the bumper actually installed one or used one themselves, they could have told you the optimum placement for the solenoid pack and EXACTLY what you would need to cut and EXACTLY what to look out for. If you were talking to me about doing a valve job I sure could walk you through every friggin nut and bolt and every torque spec, and provide you with more information than you would ever want to know, and I wouldn't charge you a penny. It's crazy that they buy a product, mark it up 50%, ship it to you and then don't provide any support. They seem like more of the same, lazy middleman salesmen. Call the credit company and reverse the charges.
I just installed one of those TF D2 Bumpers on my 02 Kalahari this evening. I will have to say in stock form IT WILL NOT just bolt onto a D2 like an ARB or Tactical Rover Bumper...
I did several test fits, and it was a no go. My D2 has never ever been in a wreck and the frame was perfectly smooth with no bumpy welds or joints. Upon further inspection I found the problem. The triangular parts weren't the problem as I wasn't even getting it to mount up that far.... On my TF front bumper the issue was with the flat part that would rest under the frame rails. It was causing the triangular parts to be off by at least 1/4 of an inch. I used a block of wood and tried to massage them down to allow for more clearance, but it did absolutely no good. I was scratching the darn bumper just moving it around on the cardboard box it came in and I was honestly getting tired of test fitting it on/off by myself and beating on it to no good.
I used a sawzall and cleanly removed the flat parts that "should" rest under the frame rails and BINGO it slid into position on the first test fit with them removed. So if you're going to attempt to install it onto a D2 I'd cut those flat parts off ASAP. I've still got the triangular parts so it's still plenty strong. I also did use a large pillow and placed it between the TF bumper and a tree and while in 4Lo I was able to get all the bolt holes to line up. To level the bumper I used a block of wood, a rag, and the LR Bottle Jack to level the bumper up as best as I could. Then I tightened the upper bolts (was installing a TF Front Steering Skid so I needed the lower bolts loose).
As far as the front radiator/core support goes I cut it out. There is not a single winch on the market that is going to fit under it. On an OEM bumper setup I can see that core support being important, but with an aftermarket steel bumper I don't see it being as important. I plan on mounting a Warn M8000 and mounting the solenoid box either behind the grill or on a bracket in front of it. I DO NOT plan on hacking the grill at all.
Since I had an 02 and a Kalahari with the Saudi Grill I just couldn't bring myself to cut up the Saudi Grill (even though it's not perfect), so I installed an 03/04 Grill which has much more clearance down where the winch will sit, and for the lower head light finishers, all you have to do is trim off a little under half an inch (or do test fits and cut little by little, but on my D2 it was just at under half an inch on each side.) Now to secure them since the 03/04 grill doesn't support them I found the easiest way to support them was using the original bracket that's directly behind them (used to have a phillips screw and a flat metal bracket which supported the lower part of the grill/head light finisher). Just drill a small hole on the lower headlight finisher, and install a long black screw and use some nylon spacers to space it evenly. If you don't want to drill a hole into your lower headlight finishers you can also use some epoxy and make your own little L brackets to mate up to that same bracket (I went with a nice looking black screw as it's easier to remove & you barely even notice it).
Overall I am disappointed in TF's initial fit, but I love how it has a shield for the washer bottle, and when matched up to TF's front steering skid it really looks nice.
If I ever had another D2 that I was going to modify I'd install one, but I think TF should remove the flat part to begin with and call it a day.
I did several test fits, and it was a no go. My D2 has never ever been in a wreck and the frame was perfectly smooth with no bumpy welds or joints. Upon further inspection I found the problem. The triangular parts weren't the problem as I wasn't even getting it to mount up that far.... On my TF front bumper the issue was with the flat part that would rest under the frame rails. It was causing the triangular parts to be off by at least 1/4 of an inch. I used a block of wood and tried to massage them down to allow for more clearance, but it did absolutely no good. I was scratching the darn bumper just moving it around on the cardboard box it came in and I was honestly getting tired of test fitting it on/off by myself and beating on it to no good.
I used a sawzall and cleanly removed the flat parts that "should" rest under the frame rails and BINGO it slid into position on the first test fit with them removed. So if you're going to attempt to install it onto a D2 I'd cut those flat parts off ASAP. I've still got the triangular parts so it's still plenty strong. I also did use a large pillow and placed it between the TF bumper and a tree and while in 4Lo I was able to get all the bolt holes to line up. To level the bumper I used a block of wood, a rag, and the LR Bottle Jack to level the bumper up as best as I could. Then I tightened the upper bolts (was installing a TF Front Steering Skid so I needed the lower bolts loose).
As far as the front radiator/core support goes I cut it out. There is not a single winch on the market that is going to fit under it. On an OEM bumper setup I can see that core support being important, but with an aftermarket steel bumper I don't see it being as important. I plan on mounting a Warn M8000 and mounting the solenoid box either behind the grill or on a bracket in front of it. I DO NOT plan on hacking the grill at all.
Since I had an 02 and a Kalahari with the Saudi Grill I just couldn't bring myself to cut up the Saudi Grill (even though it's not perfect), so I installed an 03/04 Grill which has much more clearance down where the winch will sit, and for the lower head light finishers, all you have to do is trim off a little under half an inch (or do test fits and cut little by little, but on my D2 it was just at under half an inch on each side.) Now to secure them since the 03/04 grill doesn't support them I found the easiest way to support them was using the original bracket that's directly behind them (used to have a phillips screw and a flat metal bracket which supported the lower part of the grill/head light finisher). Just drill a small hole on the lower headlight finisher, and install a long black screw and use some nylon spacers to space it evenly. If you don't want to drill a hole into your lower headlight finishers you can also use some epoxy and make your own little L brackets to mate up to that same bracket (I went with a nice looking black screw as it's easier to remove & you barely even notice it).
Overall I am disappointed in TF's initial fit, but I love how it has a shield for the washer bottle, and when matched up to TF's front steering skid it really looks nice.
If I ever had another D2 that I was going to modify I'd install one, but I think TF should remove the flat part to begin with and call it a day.
Last edited by Best4x4; Mar 2, 2016 at 09:57 PM.
Scratched laying on a cardboard box.... Yeah I'll be planning on respraying it with some truck liner paint in the future... I'll have to say though that even the $$$ Warn Bumpers I had on my Jeep's had HORRIBLE powder coating.
Only bumper I've ever bought that had powder coat on it that has never gotten dull, scratched, or chipped was a THORPARTS HD Metal Bumper for my H3 Alpha. Not even ARB comes close to the powder coat on this thing and it was a steal at 500.00!!! To bad they only make H3 stuff.
Only bumper I've ever bought that had powder coat on it that has never gotten dull, scratched, or chipped was a THORPARTS HD Metal Bumper for my H3 Alpha. Not even ARB comes close to the powder coat on this thing and it was a steal at 500.00!!! To bad they only make H3 stuff.
Thread Starter
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Camel Trophy
Joined: Dec 2009
Posts: 3,883
Likes: 951
From: Charlotte
There are a lot of people who have had the same kind of trouble with the Terrafirma bumper that you and I have had. I guess Lucky 8 has been very fortunate that they have never had a problem. I guess Justin and Erik are ... wait for it ... lucky.
Here's what I did to address the solenoid mounting question. I'm very happy with how it turned out. I still haven't bought shorter cables for the ground and to connect to the battery but I'll get around to that this spring.
https://landroverforums.com/forum/di...79/#post547555
https://landroverforums.com/forum/di...79/#post547555
I guess you could say that. We honestly have never had these issues installing their bumpers. I am not saying that because we are their largest USA distributor and we are defending their brand, I am stating it from an enthusiasts standpoint who truly has not had an issue with their bumpers. Have we had problems with other items from them? Yes, but everything that is mass-produced will often have a glitched product here and there. I wish there was a rhyme or reason to it. Just like a 3" OME kit will make a stock D2 sit 3.5" and another sit just a little over 2". When it comes to customizing trucks 12 years and older, we will always be fighting the uphill battle Im sure.
I guess you could say that. We honestly have never had these issues installing their bumpers. I am not saying that because we are their largest USA distributor and we are defending their brand, I am stating it from an enthusiasts standpoint who truly has not had an issue with their bumpers. Have we had problems with other items from them? Yes, but everything that is mass-produced will often have a glitched product here and there. I wish there was a rhyme or reason to it. Just like a 3" OME kit will make a stock D2 sit 3.5" and another sit just a little over 2". When it comes to customizing trucks 12 years and older, we will always be fighting the uphill battle Im sure.
I don't mind tweaking something to make it fit, but sorry there is NO WAY IN HELL that TF bumper out of the box simply mounts up like an ARB or OEM bumper.
The lower flat plates that sit under the frame for extra support MUST BE CUT OFF. Once they were removed it slid into place and just required the typical in/out & up/down adjustments. My D2 has never been in a wreck, frame rails were flawless and clean of any burrs. With the lower plates the triangular sections were 1/4 of an inch to low and no way they'd slide into place.
Last edited by Best4x4; Mar 4, 2016 at 10:19 AM.
I know I ordered TF009 (with shackles), but instead I received a TF009A.. Paid for em, but they're a ghost.... Going on several days now since I noticed it and contacted Lucky8, so far not a single response.....