How I fixed my Land Rover tick (slipped sleeve)
#31
04-07-2012, 11:17 PM
Rock Crawling
Join Date: Jan 2012
Location: Canton, MI
Posts: 280
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#32
04-07-2012, 11:19 PM
Rock Crawling
Join Date: Jan 2012
Location: Canton, MI
Posts: 280
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Vids of my engine before and after
2003 Land Rover Discovery ticking before pinning sleeves - YouTube
2003 Land Rover Discovery after pining the sleeves - YouTube
It is worth noting that my warm idle oil pressure is now around 20 psi. I'm not sure why it stayed so low after initial warm up.
2003 Land Rover Discovery ticking before pinning sleeves - YouTube
2003 Land Rover Discovery after pining the sleeves - YouTube
It is worth noting that my warm idle oil pressure is now around 20 psi. I'm not sure why it stayed so low after initial warm up.
#33
04-08-2012, 03:42 PM
Land Rover Cylinder Sleeve Pinning
Here is my edited version of my write up. Please make this a sticky for others to use.
The Infamous Land Rover Tick Tick Tick……………..
How to pin cylinder sleeves in a Land Rover Discovery 4.6L
First of all, I must say that the following is based upon my experience with my 2003 Land Rover Discovery. This write-up should not be used as a “how to” or specific directions on any sort of repair. I researched this process for several months before doing any of this. You should do your own research and be prepared for the worst. I got very little information from the web about these procedures and used my own judgement and skill to accomplish this. You may not be capable of a repair like this and should seriously consider any risk you will be taking.
THIS “REPAIR” COMES WITH A VERY HIGH RISK OF COMPLETE DESTRUCTION OF YOUR ENGINE AND OTHER RELATED COMPONENTS. THIS SHOULD ONLY BE CONSIDERED AS A LAST RESORT REPAIR. THERE ARE PROBABLY A THOUSAND DIFFERENT WAYS TO RUIN YOUR ENGINE WHILE DOING THIS.
DO NOT DO THIS REPAIR IF YOU NEED YOUR LAND ROVER AS A MAIN VEHICLE AS CATASTROPHIC FAILURE IS ALMOST GAURANTEED!!
I DO NOT WANT TO HEAR ABOUT HOW YOU WRECKED YOUR ENGINE.
Now that I have that out of the way, lets begin. I can not stress how important it is to do your homework on this. Read everything you can and ask a lot of questions about your problem first. Make sure you properly diagnose your engine problem first. There are many steps to troubleshooting a problem like this.
I have omitted a lot of prerequisite details, please read the full version first here https://landroverforums.com/forum/ge...70/#post311043
I placed the Rover on stands with the front axle suspended so the tires where about one inch off the ground. I removed the engine mounts on the passenger side and the starter to gain access to the block. I also removed the drivers side mount and exhaust manifold. I suspended the engine during this process. I then removed the oil pan to gain access to the inside of the cylinders. I rotated to crankshaft so the forward most piston on the passenger side was about half way up the cylinder. I placed rags inside the piston skirt and another around the connecting rod. I thought about applying a film of grease in the cylinder and the surrounding areas to catch any metal shavings but felt that this could also allow for a more difficult cleanup process as shavings could become caught in an area where compressed air or cleaner could not remove them as they would stick to surfaces.
I chucked up a #7 drill bit into my 90 degree drill and located a place for my first hole. The cylinder is pretty self explanatory while viewing it from the outside of the block. The cylinder water jacket extends from the cylinder head down to just below the travel of the piston rings. Below this the shape of the block narrows until it is only about a ¼” thick from the outside to the inside of the cylinder. This narrowed area is only about ¾” tall but allows ample material to drill and tap holes that would be below the water jacket but still high enough on the sleeve to be effective. I centered my holes vertically in this narrowed area and rotated them slightly around the center reinforced webbing of the block. I tried to drill as square to the cylinder as possible. I feel this is very important because if you were to tread a bolt in that was somewhat angled, part of a thread could protrude into the cylinder while the remainder of the threads still remained inside of the hole. The protruding portion could catch the piston skirt causing damage if not sanded smooth while the opposite side of the thread could be too far into the threads to effectively secure the sleeve. It is very difficult to be perfect under these conditions but certain patience can be used to ensure a best case drilling job here. If something is in the way of the drill to not allow you to be square, move it or find another solution.
I drilled two holes into each cylinder on the passenger side of the block and two holes on the front two driver side cylinders while only one per cylinder on the two rear driver side cylinders. I placed a hole on either side of the webbing for the cylinders that two holes were possible.
I initially drilled and tapped one hole in my first cylinder and found that it is extremely difficult to set the threads at the proper depth. I first tried a stainless ¼ 20 bolt. I found that the bolt head did not want to sit well against the round cast surface of the block. I then tried a stainless alen head bolt and although it was better, it was a real pain to get the bolt the correct size. I must have removed and installed this bolt 30 times. I was actually worried that I was wearing out the aluminum threads I just created. I ended up using stainless allen set screws. These are ½” long and I used stainless nuts to lock them onto the block. This would allow me to thread the set screw in to the exact depth while still having the nut provide tension against the block to lock it in place. I went one step further which proved to be very important.
The tip of the set screws were a bit beveled. In order to provide the most positve holding surface, the threads need to be as flat as possible. This will alow the set screw threads to be perfectly flush with the inside of the sleeve. This is important because the sleeve is very thin and you want as many threads engaged with the sleeve as possible without protruding into the cylinder. With a very flat end, you can literally thread it in and feel the exact moment the screw enters the inside of the cylinder, back it off a hair, and hold the set screw with an allen wrench while loking it down with the nut. I ran my screws on my belt sander that I calmped in my vise. I chucked the screws into a cordless drill to turn them while they were run over the sander. If you are very careful to be square in all directions to the belt sander, this is a very effective way to machine a square end. It worked great.
Now lets back up a step.
While I drilled these holes, I greased the drill bit several times per hole. The grease catches the metal shavings and keeps most of the mess on the outside. It is actually amazing how little material enters the inside of the engine. The material that does is ok because we placed our rags inside to catch this previously. I also greased my tap in a similar manner. I chucked my tap on my drill and ran it into the holes trying to follow the angle of the hole carefully. Also, after drilling and tapping each cylinder, I rotated the crank to align the piston for the next cylinder to be drilled. THIS IS VERY IMPORTANT.
After all of the holes were drilled and tapped, I lined up my set screws and nuts on my bench. I used Loctite primer on all of these. I CAN NOT STRESS THE IMPORTANCE OF THIS ENOUGH! The primer will make the Loctite work at least 10 times better. The primer does increase the dry time of the Loctite considerably. We had some setting up in as little as 3 minutes. Some lock nuts were locked onto the set screws before we had a chance to lock the nut down. This all has to do with the principle of Loctite. If you apply Loctite onto a bolt, you could probably let it sit out in the open for 15 minutes and then the Loctite will just start to set. If you apply the Loctite and place a nut over the threads, it will start to set immediately. This is because the setting process is accelerated under the lack of air between the threads and the nut. I soon learned to thread the nut just on the very end of the screw then apply Loctite to the remaining threads. After the screw is in place, the nut will be turned over threads that have Loctite on them and all is well. We primered the holes in the block before we inserted the screws also. I used red Loctite as I wanted a permanent bond for obvious reasons. There is probably a better Loctite to be used here but it is what I had and I felt the 350 degree temp rating was sufficient. It is also worth noting that the use of stainless screws in this application is necessary to prevent electrolysis.
Run the screws in until they are PERFECTLY flush with the inside of the sleeve. I mean PERFECT. It takes some doing but you can run the screw in with one hand while feeling for it with the other, I would actually suggest running them a couple thousandsths under flush. Lock the outer nut onto the screw, then use some emery cloth to de-burr the area. Clean the cylinder really well and move onto the next.
After installing the oil pan and other items removed, I topped it off with a dose of 10W-40, installed a new oil filter, drained the oil again because I forgot to tighten the oil pick-up tube, refilled it with oil, double checked that I installed everything that was removed previously and prepared to fire it up.
Of course it worked but go to the original post linked above to learn more. There is a lot of good information there that was removed to condense this a little. Good Luck!
The attached photos are in no particular order. I reached the photo limit but will post another set of photos until I'm finished.
The Infamous Land Rover Tick Tick Tick……………..
How to pin cylinder sleeves in a Land Rover Discovery 4.6L
First of all, I must say that the following is based upon my experience with my 2003 Land Rover Discovery. This write-up should not be used as a “how to” or specific directions on any sort of repair. I researched this process for several months before doing any of this. You should do your own research and be prepared for the worst. I got very little information from the web about these procedures and used my own judgement and skill to accomplish this. You may not be capable of a repair like this and should seriously consider any risk you will be taking.
THIS “REPAIR” COMES WITH A VERY HIGH RISK OF COMPLETE DESTRUCTION OF YOUR ENGINE AND OTHER RELATED COMPONENTS. THIS SHOULD ONLY BE CONSIDERED AS A LAST RESORT REPAIR. THERE ARE PROBABLY A THOUSAND DIFFERENT WAYS TO RUIN YOUR ENGINE WHILE DOING THIS.
DO NOT DO THIS REPAIR IF YOU NEED YOUR LAND ROVER AS A MAIN VEHICLE AS CATASTROPHIC FAILURE IS ALMOST GAURANTEED!!
I DO NOT WANT TO HEAR ABOUT HOW YOU WRECKED YOUR ENGINE.
Now that I have that out of the way, lets begin. I can not stress how important it is to do your homework on this. Read everything you can and ask a lot of questions about your problem first. Make sure you properly diagnose your engine problem first. There are many steps to troubleshooting a problem like this.
I have omitted a lot of prerequisite details, please read the full version first here https://landroverforums.com/forum/ge...70/#post311043
I placed the Rover on stands with the front axle suspended so the tires where about one inch off the ground. I removed the engine mounts on the passenger side and the starter to gain access to the block. I also removed the drivers side mount and exhaust manifold. I suspended the engine during this process. I then removed the oil pan to gain access to the inside of the cylinders. I rotated to crankshaft so the forward most piston on the passenger side was about half way up the cylinder. I placed rags inside the piston skirt and another around the connecting rod. I thought about applying a film of grease in the cylinder and the surrounding areas to catch any metal shavings but felt that this could also allow for a more difficult cleanup process as shavings could become caught in an area where compressed air or cleaner could not remove them as they would stick to surfaces.
I chucked up a #7 drill bit into my 90 degree drill and located a place for my first hole. The cylinder is pretty self explanatory while viewing it from the outside of the block. The cylinder water jacket extends from the cylinder head down to just below the travel of the piston rings. Below this the shape of the block narrows until it is only about a ¼” thick from the outside to the inside of the cylinder. This narrowed area is only about ¾” tall but allows ample material to drill and tap holes that would be below the water jacket but still high enough on the sleeve to be effective. I centered my holes vertically in this narrowed area and rotated them slightly around the center reinforced webbing of the block. I tried to drill as square to the cylinder as possible. I feel this is very important because if you were to tread a bolt in that was somewhat angled, part of a thread could protrude into the cylinder while the remainder of the threads still remained inside of the hole. The protruding portion could catch the piston skirt causing damage if not sanded smooth while the opposite side of the thread could be too far into the threads to effectively secure the sleeve. It is very difficult to be perfect under these conditions but certain patience can be used to ensure a best case drilling job here. If something is in the way of the drill to not allow you to be square, move it or find another solution.
I drilled two holes into each cylinder on the passenger side of the block and two holes on the front two driver side cylinders while only one per cylinder on the two rear driver side cylinders. I placed a hole on either side of the webbing for the cylinders that two holes were possible.
I initially drilled and tapped one hole in my first cylinder and found that it is extremely difficult to set the threads at the proper depth. I first tried a stainless ¼ 20 bolt. I found that the bolt head did not want to sit well against the round cast surface of the block. I then tried a stainless alen head bolt and although it was better, it was a real pain to get the bolt the correct size. I must have removed and installed this bolt 30 times. I was actually worried that I was wearing out the aluminum threads I just created. I ended up using stainless allen set screws. These are ½” long and I used stainless nuts to lock them onto the block. This would allow me to thread the set screw in to the exact depth while still having the nut provide tension against the block to lock it in place. I went one step further which proved to be very important.
The tip of the set screws were a bit beveled. In order to provide the most positve holding surface, the threads need to be as flat as possible. This will alow the set screw threads to be perfectly flush with the inside of the sleeve. This is important because the sleeve is very thin and you want as many threads engaged with the sleeve as possible without protruding into the cylinder. With a very flat end, you can literally thread it in and feel the exact moment the screw enters the inside of the cylinder, back it off a hair, and hold the set screw with an allen wrench while loking it down with the nut. I ran my screws on my belt sander that I calmped in my vise. I chucked the screws into a cordless drill to turn them while they were run over the sander. If you are very careful to be square in all directions to the belt sander, this is a very effective way to machine a square end. It worked great.
Now lets back up a step.
While I drilled these holes, I greased the drill bit several times per hole. The grease catches the metal shavings and keeps most of the mess on the outside. It is actually amazing how little material enters the inside of the engine. The material that does is ok because we placed our rags inside to catch this previously. I also greased my tap in a similar manner. I chucked my tap on my drill and ran it into the holes trying to follow the angle of the hole carefully. Also, after drilling and tapping each cylinder, I rotated the crank to align the piston for the next cylinder to be drilled. THIS IS VERY IMPORTANT.
After all of the holes were drilled and tapped, I lined up my set screws and nuts on my bench. I used Loctite primer on all of these. I CAN NOT STRESS THE IMPORTANCE OF THIS ENOUGH! The primer will make the Loctite work at least 10 times better. The primer does increase the dry time of the Loctite considerably. We had some setting up in as little as 3 minutes. Some lock nuts were locked onto the set screws before we had a chance to lock the nut down. This all has to do with the principle of Loctite. If you apply Loctite onto a bolt, you could probably let it sit out in the open for 15 minutes and then the Loctite will just start to set. If you apply the Loctite and place a nut over the threads, it will start to set immediately. This is because the setting process is accelerated under the lack of air between the threads and the nut. I soon learned to thread the nut just on the very end of the screw then apply Loctite to the remaining threads. After the screw is in place, the nut will be turned over threads that have Loctite on them and all is well. We primered the holes in the block before we inserted the screws also. I used red Loctite as I wanted a permanent bond for obvious reasons. There is probably a better Loctite to be used here but it is what I had and I felt the 350 degree temp rating was sufficient. It is also worth noting that the use of stainless screws in this application is necessary to prevent electrolysis.
Run the screws in until they are PERFECTLY flush with the inside of the sleeve. I mean PERFECT. It takes some doing but you can run the screw in with one hand while feeling for it with the other, I would actually suggest running them a couple thousandsths under flush. Lock the outer nut onto the screw, then use some emery cloth to de-burr the area. Clean the cylinder really well and move onto the next.
After installing the oil pan and other items removed, I topped it off with a dose of 10W-40, installed a new oil filter, drained the oil again because I forgot to tighten the oil pick-up tube, refilled it with oil, double checked that I installed everything that was removed previously and prepared to fire it up.
Of course it worked but go to the original post linked above to learn more. There is a lot of good information there that was removed to condense this a little. Good Luck!
The attached photos are in no particular order. I reached the photo limit but will post another set of photos until I'm finished.
The following users liked this post:
Toms (07-10-2020)
#35
04-08-2012, 03:47 PM
#38
05-03-2012, 08:29 AM
rudawski,
A very good post. I appreciate not only your work, but your sharing it with us. I have been dealing with the same thing on our 03 disco. Our tick started at around 70k but I thought it was valve train or bearings and would change the oil and add a full quart of Lucas, synthetic on both counts. The ticking would go away for a couple of thousand miles. In the last year, the tick has become a regular feature. I have since had the heads rebuilt and put in new lifters, new oil pump and housing and water pump - and we still have the tick. After reading so many posts, I am convinced that it is a slipped sleeve. The funny thing was, just yesterday I thought of trying something similar to what you wrote.
I have 2 questions, (if you are still reading this);
1) It appears that you didn't use a lock washer on the nut, was there a reason for that? I would think that would give a little added protection to keep the nut from backing out.
2) What was your total time under the car? I am considering this as a weekend project since I really can't shut the truck down right now. Is it possible? My son is a student at NTI here in Charlotte and he will be my wingman.
Thanks for the info, and kudos to you for having the huevos to pull this off!
A very good post. I appreciate not only your work, but your sharing it with us. I have been dealing with the same thing on our 03 disco. Our tick started at around 70k but I thought it was valve train or bearings and would change the oil and add a full quart of Lucas, synthetic on both counts. The ticking would go away for a couple of thousand miles. In the last year, the tick has become a regular feature. I have since had the heads rebuilt and put in new lifters, new oil pump and housing and water pump - and we still have the tick. After reading so many posts, I am convinced that it is a slipped sleeve. The funny thing was, just yesterday I thought of trying something similar to what you wrote.
I have 2 questions, (if you are still reading this);
1) It appears that you didn't use a lock washer on the nut, was there a reason for that? I would think that would give a little added protection to keep the nut from backing out.
2) What was your total time under the car? I am considering this as a weekend project since I really can't shut the truck down right now. Is it possible? My son is a student at NTI here in Charlotte and he will be my wingman.
Thanks for the info, and kudos to you for having the huevos to pull this off!
#39
05-03-2012, 10:24 PM
PJ,
I did not use a lock washer simply because there is not a nice flat area for the washer to sit. Using the loctite the way that I did was a much better solution. You will see once you spend some time exploring.
Total time form start to finish:
I started at about 8am tearing things down and trying to get a good plan going. My dad showed up at about 1 pm and I already had 4 holes drilled. We finished around 10 pm. Now, if I did not have to do so much of the pioneering of this technique and had a decent reference like you do (you are welcome), I could probably do this in about 8 hours if it were my first time. If I had to do another with this experience under my belt, 5 hours tops.
Here is a list of must have items:
90 degree drill
red loctite AND primer
drill and tap
set screws and nuts (get extras, cheap insurance for after hours mistakes)
cherry picker or way to support engine after removal of motor mounts
oil pan gasket
These are the items I feel you can not ignore. I'm sure there are other tools etc that can make this possible, but this is a shortcut list, follow it. Obviously, there are many more common tools needed, these are the ones to shop for.
Good luck, be patient, and use your head. It takes a hell of a lot less to relax and take a break than to f**k up something. Give yourself plenty of time. Start early and do it right. You will be pleased.
Email me at rudawski@yahoo.com if you need more help. I don't always check in here. That goes for anyone else in the future, if you want some help or advise, shoot me an email.
I did not use a lock washer simply because there is not a nice flat area for the washer to sit. Using the loctite the way that I did was a much better solution. You will see once you spend some time exploring.
Total time form start to finish:
I started at about 8am tearing things down and trying to get a good plan going. My dad showed up at about 1 pm and I already had 4 holes drilled. We finished around 10 pm. Now, if I did not have to do so much of the pioneering of this technique and had a decent reference like you do (you are welcome), I could probably do this in about 8 hours if it were my first time. If I had to do another with this experience under my belt, 5 hours tops.
Here is a list of must have items:
90 degree drill
red loctite AND primer
drill and tap
set screws and nuts (get extras, cheap insurance for after hours mistakes)
cherry picker or way to support engine after removal of motor mounts
oil pan gasket
These are the items I feel you can not ignore. I'm sure there are other tools etc that can make this possible, but this is a shortcut list, follow it. Obviously, there are many more common tools needed, these are the ones to shop for.
Good luck, be patient, and use your head. It takes a hell of a lot less to relax and take a break than to f**k up something. Give yourself plenty of time. Start early and do it right. You will be pleased.
Email me at rudawski@yahoo.com if you need more help. I don't always check in here. That goes for anyone else in the future, if you want some help or advise, shoot me an email.
#40
05-04-2012, 12:54 AM
Recovery Vehicle
I've got to commend you OP for all the work you did with this, great job. Gotta say though if it were me I would probably just had let the motor eat and see how long it would have lasted. I love my 03 Discovery a lot too but Rover really screwed up in a lot of areas. It is a very capable vehicle but you also have stupid miscues like the drive shaft, oil pump, sagging headliner, slipped sleeves. And to top it off it comes from the factory with corrosive coolant.
It's also quite ridiculous that it takes premium gas. I would pay premium gas for a better quality engine but it pisses me off that we have to dump liquid gold in the most unforgiving motor of all time.
Not to mention the heater core. You essentially must remove everything on the front facia and the hvac. The truck is really only designed to last for the warranty period sad to say. But I think everyone on this forum is really a trooper for showing these things the TLC that Rover should have for it's customers.
It's also quite ridiculous that it takes premium gas. I would pay premium gas for a better quality engine but it pisses me off that we have to dump liquid gold in the most unforgiving motor of all time.
Not to mention the heater core. You essentially must remove everything on the front facia and the hvac. The truck is really only designed to last for the warranty period sad to say. But I think everyone on this forum is really a trooper for showing these things the TLC that Rover should have for it's customers.